Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 56

Thread: Vaal Venues: Rod Fees

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Parys / Free State
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Sawmbo??????

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sunninghill JHB
    Posts
    2,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deon TerBlanche View Post
    Sawmbo??????
    Sorry Deon, that should read SWAMBO = Wife

    She
    Who
    Always
    Must
    Be
    Obeyed
    Mike McKeown

    You're either fishing or waiting...

  3. #13
    keithw Banned User

    Default rod fees etc

    hi guys,

    Thanks MC for pointing out that I had been referenced in this forum.

    I would like to respond to the issues raised in this thread and thereafter continue the discussion via email (keith@yellowsonfly.com) because I cannot monitor the post ongoing...too much conservation and other work to do :-)

    I have a view that the pressure exerted by flyfishers on the middle Vaal habitat is unsustainable for the ecosystem (especially the yellowfish): I believe access must be limited, to achieve this in a free market context I urge landowners to ideally disallow day visitors (DV's) all together. DV's are not a viable target audience as revenues per customer are very low, thus requiring high DV numbers to generate sustainable business value and hence large impact on the river's ecosystem. The ideal model is to erect accomodation and offer access to the water frontage only to customers paying for accomodation: in this scenario the landowner has a viable business achieving high revenue per customer and adding significantly to the value of the farm operations. This is what I proposed to the Ben Joh management in late 2004 when they took ownership from the late Jan Simonie.

    The agreement was that Ben Joh management would allow no DV's, rest the water for an entire spawning cycle and open the water to guests of the lodges only when those facilities were operational (estimated to be a 6 month rest period initially). I also recomended that the Ben Joh water frontage should see no more than 8 rods per day (shared between the inhabitants of all of the lodges) and possibly as many as 15 if traversing rights were negotiated with the 2 farms further upstream on the NW bank.

    This advice was not followed. DV's were allowed in after a brief respite of a week or 2.

    A secondary scenario for landowners who do not wish or do not have the funds to erect accomodation is to offer a more "private" (I don't like the word exclusive) experience whereby there is a gauranteed max number or rods on the water and for this the DV pays a higher access fee (I believe R150 per day is a good benchmark). Remember that in other high pressur flyfishing areas such as Dullstroom, Mid West USA, Hampshire in the Uk one pays significantly more than this to access good water.

    Now not every landowner will adopt one of these 2 scenarios, which is good beacause natural market forces will ensure there will always be a mix of low cost high volume, high cost low volume etc types of water available to the flyfisher... this is starting to play out on the Vaal and in time we might even start to reduce the impact on the fish.

    BTW> I see no revenue from any landowner with whom I work to conserve yellowfish and the ecosystem in which they exist... I commit about 25% of everyday to conserving the middle Vaal and its tribs completely at my owne expense. I believe the key role players are landowners, government, anglers: I work with all 3 to try to rehabilitate/conserve the Vaal. The prognosis is not good.

    Many people have and will inappropriately associate themselves with me and my work to perpetuate their agendas, occasionally I attempt to offer some clarity, I hope I have achieved this here.

    On access to water: please respect landowners' rights. Moving up, accross or downstream from your legal point of entry to the river is legal, stepping onto the substrate and fishing is illegal: You are trespassing. Various theories about access to the river bed being a basic right is not accurate, the substrate is within the title deed of one of the farms on the adjoining bank. Treat farms and farmers with respect or you will add to the growing discontent of farmers toward fly anglers.

    be nice to the fish,
    keith
    Last edited by keithw; 08-11-06 at 08:55 PM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sunninghill JHB
    Posts
    2,262

    Default

    Before I go into my little rant and rave. I have been fishing the Vaal since the early ’90, I believe I am a conscientious fisherman and try my best to educate other fly fishers I come across on the river. I have been a member of most of the “organizations” I come in contact with.

    Quote Originally Posted by keithw View Post
    I have a view that the pressure exerted by flyfishers on the middle Vaal habitat is unsustainable for the ecosystem (especially the yellowfish): I believe access must be limited, to achieve this in a free market context I urge landowners to ideally disallow day visitors (DV's) all together. DV's are not a viable target audience as revenues per customer are very low, thus requiring high DV numbers to generate sustainable business value and hence large impact on the river's ecosystem. The ideal model is to erect accomodation and offer access to the water frontage only to customers paying for accomodation: in this scenario the landowner has a viable business achieving high revenue per customer and adding significantly to the value of the farm operations. This is what I proposed to the Ben Joh management in late 2004 when they took ownership from the late Jan Simonie.
    1. So I have to suffer because I live in JHB, and prefer to go down for the day?? You’re actually encouraging the elitism, I despise.

    Quote Originally Posted by keithw View Post
    The agreement was that Ben Joh management would allow no DV's, rest the water for an entire spawning cycle and open the water to guests of the lodges only when those facilities were operational (estimated to be a 6 month rest period initially). I also recomended that the Ben Joh water frontage should see no more than 8 rods per day (shared between the inhabitants of all of the lodges) and possibly as many as 15 if traversing rights were negotiated with the 2 farms further upstream on the NW bank.
    2. Would it not be more effective to train a river ranger, to teach the new comers about the spawning beds, than stop people getting to fish at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by keithw View Post
    A secondary scenario for landowners who do not wish or do not have the funds to erect accomodation is to offer a more "private" (I don't like the word exclusive) experience whereby there is a gauranteed max number or rods on the water and for this the DV pays a higher access fee (I believe R150 per day is a good benchmark). Remember that in other high pressur flyfishing areas such as Dullstroom, Mid West USA, Hampshire in the Uk one pays significantly more than this to access good water.
    3. Exclusive is what it is, R700 per night.

    Quote Originally Posted by keithw View Post
    BTW> I see no revenue from any landowner with whom I work to conserve yellowfish and the ecosystem in which they exist... I commit about 25% of everyday to conserving the middle Vaal and its tribs completely at my owne expense. I believe the key role players are landowners, government, anglers: I work with all 3 to try to rehabilitate/conserve the Vaal. The prognosis is not good.
    4. Ask for help, there are a lot of people out there who are willing and able.

    I would like to take this further, but I don’t see the benefits. We, flyfishers pay money to the conservancy, with out question, and with out being asked, and the “pap goiers” keep every fish they can.

    Sucks, I really hate being discriminated against.

    Thank you for your efforts… I actually appreciate your work… but it that communication thing, again… tell us something, anything...
    Mike McKeown

    You're either fishing or waiting...

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Not close enough to the Vaal
    Posts
    160

    Default

    This realy erks me!! Max, I agree 100%!! Discrimination as a flyfisher man really SUCKS! I'm so p!$$ed off now, I not gonna comment!

  6. #16
    Gogga Banned User

    Default

    I'm sitting here at work - and reading this - I'm "Gob smacked" (a good English term to describe it I believe................)

    Let me start with some of your comments:- Kieth W

    "I have a view that the pressure exerted by flyfishers on the middle Vaal habitat is unsustainable for the ecosystem (especially the yellowfish): I believe access must be limited, to achieve this in a free market context I urge landowners to ideally disallow day visitors (DV's) all together. DV's are not a viable target audience as revenues per customer are very low, thus requiring high DV numbers to generate sustainable business value and hence large impact on the river's ecosystem."

    So in a nut shell you want to create an Elitist sport - yea right!!

    The ideal model is to erect accommodation and offer access to the water frontage only to customers paying for accommodations: in this scenario the landowner has a viable business achieving high revenue per customer and adding significantly to the value of the farm operations. "

    So the land owner - erects fancy accommodation and charges a fortune per night - So-by wiping out all the less fortunate folk that can't afford to live in these places Yea right!!

    "A secondary scenario for landowners who do not wish or do not have the funds to erect accomodation is to offer a more "private" (I don't like the word exclusive) experience whereby there is a gauranteed max number or rods on the water and for this the DV pays a higher access fee (I believe R150 per day is a good benchmark). Remember that in other high pressur flyfishing areas such as Dullstroom, Mid West USA, Hampshire in the Uk one pays significantly more than this to access good water."

    That why perhaps these places have become the play grounds of the rich - Yea Right!!

    "I believe the key role players are landowners, government, anglers: I work with all 3 to try to rehabilitate/conserve the Vaal. The prognosis is not good."

    Ever wonder why the prognosis is not good..............................?

    "On access to water: please respect landowners' rights. Moving up, accross or downstream from your legal point of entry to the river is legal, stepping onto the substrate and fishing is illegal: You are trespassing. Various theories about access to the river bed being a basic right is not accurate, the substrate is within the title deed of one of the farms on the adjoining bank. Treat farms and farmers with respect or you will add to the growing discontent of farmers toward fly anglers."


    OK let me give you a little advice here - I have lived fished and worked in many places in the world, And frankly you Ideas reek of elitism......

    In the UK - the land owners are crooks - they charge the earth for fishing - let see 1000.00 Pound a day to fish the Scottish rivers for Salmon - or 6000.00 Pound a week - to catch maybe three fish in a week,(trust me I have fished the Highlands and it sucks!) and then there is a 10 year waiting list to get into the "club" if you are accepted - the prime waters are now corperation owned and guarded by strong men (Gillies) - maybe this is in your mind for the Vaal river ?

    In the USA - only in some States the same model exists - once again the playground of the rich.

    Now if you want a model that works and is fair on all concerned then look at British Columbia - The state has the water and fishing rights to all the water - We pay an annual fee for both fresh and Salt water fishing and we are are free to fish where we like - The State has built fish hatcheries on every single river and produces millions of fish per annum for restocking - i.e. the Fraser river - the largest - they stock 25million Salmon fry of each species per year and there are five Salmon species. The other rivers stock equal impressive amounts BTW.

    What does it mean to the country - well simply they have sytmatically built one of the best fisheries in the world, and annual income from fishing alone is worth billions of Dollars. The whole populace lays claim to a piece and are therefore extreemly good stakeholders.

    Imagine for one tiny second, South Africa going down this same route - Tourism in all forms is a huge money spinner - if you guy's get your house in order - the fisherman will come to fish.


    If the road to sucess, is as you have suggested - then I recomend that every flyfisherman in South Africa buy's a float tube and fishes off it (as they do in some States) and says stuff it to the landowners..................


    All the best
    Mike
    Last edited by Gogga; 08-11-06 at 10:38 PM.

  7. #17
    keithw Banned User

    Default

    hi guys,

    I agree the BC model is a good one, I am attempting to create a balanced system within the current Water Act. As mentioned, the 2 scenarios, at play in a free market, result in a range of access options from low cost high volume/pressure to high cost low volume/pressure... balance is the objective.

    I don't represent a body/organization etc, just looking at ways to look after the fish (and ensure fishermen have something to throw a fly at).

    I appreciate your passion, I too am passionate, I would prefer not to engage in a negatively charged debate, lets direct the passion toward solutions. I invite further discussion (via email as I typically don't get much time for chat fora).

    cheers,
    keith

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Stilbaai
    Posts
    990

    Default

    Keith,

    Welcome to the site, your conservation efforts are admirable and I'm sure are driven by your passion for yellows.

    I've heard the other day a Joburg shop sold 16 yellow outfits in less than a day as the word was out that the Vaal is producing and flows allow for good fishing. I perceive it as landowners realising the demand is outthere and adjust their rates accordingly, makes sense - low impact needs less management for a higher return. With 2010 Soccer on its way it also makes sense to offer world class fishing for an international tourist paying top fee.

    For some reason the general perception is all fly fisher belong to the LM6 and above (is that correct?) income groups. I'm sure if Abel manufactured as many fly reels as Penn the price of an Abel would still top the price of a golden Penn international with don't know how many gears and levers. Why? Because a fly fisher wants it. How is it possible to charge the bait guys, keeping fish in keepnets, gutt hooking etc. less than the fly fishers? I also believe potential fly fishers might shy away, not taking up an "expensive" sport.

    There are many fly fishers outthere, that just can't afford paying R 150.00 often for their favourite pastime. Will these guys be "denied" access to these venues or are there other options available on the Vaal?

    Good Luck with your efforts.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sunninghill JHB
    Posts
    2,262

    Default

    Enough, my back is up... I shall sleep on it...(if Tyler lets me)

    My costs have doubled, and I don’t see anything for it. It used to be a great way of introducing new guys to fly-fishing, but the first thing they see is HIGH prices...

    What you have been promoting is outrageous... So in 10 years time when I take my son to the Vaal, I can say to him, “Sorry son, we can only fish the municipal dam, as all the other water is syndicated.” Or “Sorry son, we can’t afford to fish there, that’s for special occasions.”

    And don’t come on this site, and tell us to respond to you via mail, this a forum, specifically set up for people to air their view, openly.

    And further, I have fish Bens almost exclusively for the last 5 years.

    Enough, I have said too much…

    Thank You Keith... I shall not comment further until I have calmed down.
    Mike McKeown

    You're either fishing or waiting...

  10. #20
    Gogga Banned User

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by keithw View Post
    hi guys,

    I agree the BC model is a good one, I am attempting to create a balanced system within the current Water Act. As mentioned, the 2 scenarios, at play in a free market, result in a range of access options from low cost high volume/pressure to high cost low volume/pressure... balance is the objective.

    I don't represent a body/organization etc, just looking at ways to look after the fish (and ensure fishermen have something to throw a fly at).

    I appreciate your passion, I too am passionate, I would prefer not to engage in a negatively charged debate, lets direct the passion toward solutions. I invite further discussion (via email as I typically don't get much time for chat fora).

    cheers,
    keith

    Kieth,

    I appreciate it that you are passionate about the fish and fishing, I think you will find most people on this board feel the same.

    I respect that you have opinions - and thank ***, we all have opinions!

    I would hate to see this thread end in a slinging match - But in my experience flyfisherman are very strong willed people - that's why we flyfish afterall.

    There has to be a balance I agree, The way forward may be rod restrictions on each beat - (land owner controlled - with guidance from fishing scientists - conservationists etc.etc)

    The trick will be to get them to see the bigger picture, of long term earnings rather than short term "quick buck" scenarios.

    The fisherman will understand - as pressure fishing is not good for anyone or anything.

    Rod restrictions could be encouraged by fair pricing, and book early schemes - this would also ensure a steady income for the land owners.

    The mechanics of the restrictions would need to be worked out correctly with things like breeding seasons, fish per square meter, kilometer or whatever, accurately measured, and fishing pressure then calculated on the stock.

    Thats just a few of my thoughts - hope we get some constructive comment.

    All the best
    Mike
    Last edited by Gogga; 08-11-06 at 11:06 PM.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •