Hi Mike
Was this just a cost cutting excersize? You used the same parts and colours? If so, does the customer know that if it needs a replacement section he has to come back to you for the refit?
Mike
Mike McKeown
You're either fishing or waiting...
Mario Geldenhuys
Smallstream fanatic, plus I do some other things that I can't tell you about
"All the tips or magical insights in the world can't replace devotion, dedication, commitment, and gumption - and there is not secret in that" - Glenn Brackett
Mario, I am asking about the motives, there is no reason that you can't sell it below the recommended retail price. However, as we have discussed on the phone, the reason someone should want a custom built rod is that it is finished better than a factory rod, even if it is more expensive.
You cannot tell me that a rod that is finished with the same fittings as a factory rod is better, IMHO its worth is less.
Like in your case, your rods are, IMHO, finished better than factory, but you also charge more, which, IMHO, is where the value in a custom build is. Internationaly, custom built rods are sold for more than the factory built rods, in some cases as much as twice, in other just a few dollars more.
If, as I suspect is the case in point, you want to save a few buck, but get a high-end stick, is having someone build you a stick that looks the same as the factory built rod the right way to go?
Mike McKeown
You're either fishing or waiting...
I've had this conversation with Dean before, Mike...seems he spoke to you too eventually.
Firtsly, please show me the custom Sage rods in the USA that cost twice the price of a factory rod? I'd really love to see them. They must use gold inlays or something.
Secondly, sometimes custom builds costs LESS than the factory Sages, in the USA.
Case in point? The late Dave Lewis...Performance Fly Rods.
His Sage rods were a LOT better than the factory rods (in terms of build quality, finish, overall look, etc). He also only used top-grade flor cork, and had his reel seats made specially for him or he used REC, Bellinger, etc...and Struble, of course. YET...his Sage rods cost the client about $50 to $75 LESS than a factory Sage.
Don't believe me? Check out his prices page: (He said so directly)
http://www.performanceflyrods.com/prices.shtml
SO...if a client pays more for a custom Sage (using the same components), than they would for a factory Sage, it's a bit silly...Me, I chose not to rip people.
Unless it's a Sage custom rod made up by Jerry Siem himself, and he personally signs it, no-one should pay more for a custom Sage than a factory Sage, especially if you are using the same components (Struble, H&H, etc).
So, for any Sage build, I charge exactly the same price as what the factory rod costs.
Or, less...if the components, tube, etc is not as expensive as the original components. But never more than a factory Sage...I mean what's the point?
In general, it's less than a factory Sage. Why? Because I don't rip people a new one, with stupid labour costs. Remember, I do not do this for a living...it's a hobby...so I make minimal out of the deal.
Sage's warranties on blanks are clear. They cover the blank only, none of the other components. So if a guy has a custom Sage, and it snaps, yes they must bring me the rod, I get a new blank for him, and build that section up for them. The only cost they would incur is the postage to and from Sage, if applicable, or...if I have to fit a new grip etc. I always make them aware of it.
That's why I always tell the guys...rather insure your rod. You insure most of your tackle, so why not your rods? (Even if it is a lifetime warranty Sage). Becuase...Sage won't replace a lost, stolen or burnt out rod. But if you insure your tackle...it's covered against breakage, loss, theft, fire, the lot.
And it costs about R 8.00 to R 12.00 per rod...well worth it. And come claim time, you can opt to keep the cash and not replace the rod, or buy a newer model, a different weight class, a different brand, whatever.
Lastly...Mike, if you think the Sage rods I build is below standard...I welcome you to come have a look at them, cast them, etc.
But bring your wallet...I know you'll want one.
Last edited by Michael; 06-05-10 at 06:24 PM.
I have to agree with both Mike's here on this one actually.
I cannot see the purpose of having a custom done that is "equal" or "less" than a factory build. Then again, you have to provide a service to the client as he/she requested.
Regarding pricing - once again, that all depends on the levels of customizing. For me, a build usually consists of doing a custom grip, custom graphics and writing, custom wraps, custom spacer, custom rod bag, custom rod tube and custom neoprene tube sleeve. If you tally hours spent on this, they are seldom less than 50 hours spent per rod, closer to about 60 - 70 hours normally. This is due to sourcing the raw wood for the spacers, blocking, turning etc, making the aluminium tube (painting, graphics, etchings) and then the usual stuff that goes into the rest of the build. Turning man-hours in R & C, it comes to very little R/H at the end of the day - not really financially rewarding (as Mike has stated). A builder who goes the whole 9 yards would make around would not make more than around 15% - 20% profit - this takes into account consumables and man hours.
Comparing our prices to those in the States though is also a little unfair. They pay no shipping, and also no VAT. So on average you can add around $50 to the price that builders in the States would charge compared to us.
Anyway, I guess the point is YES, you can definitely do a Sage custom for less than a factory rod (quite easily in fact), but with adding all the extras (which really is what a custom rod is about) I cannot really see this happening.
The build though I have already commented on somewhere else, and the client who is getting this should be over the moon. He got what he asked for.
Mario Geldenhuys
Smallstream fanatic, plus I do some other things that I can't tell you about
"All the tips or magical insights in the world can't replace devotion, dedication, commitment, and gumption - and there is not secret in that" - Glenn Brackett
A custom finished rod is better. As great as Sage is, their factory rods are still mass produced items, built on a production line. A rod that is finished with the time and care that Mike, Mario, etc. give will be better every single time no matter what components are used. From wrapping, to varnishing, spine alignment, etc., having the time to do it properly shows.
Lay a custom built Sage alongside a factory rod and you will see the difference immediately. I hear what you say about the warranty, but I guess it actually comes down to what the customer wants.
You are a perishable item. Live accordingly.
Is that a statement or fact??
Sorry man that is incorrect lets not get into the nitty gritty, search the forum on this and you will find that the rods are hand made. They also utilise a great American tradition of cottage industries, the blanks are sent out to housewife’s and stay-at-home types, who then wrap the guides. They are then sent back to the factory for the QC and epoxy.
I am sorry, ?better?, the only thing that might be better, and I say might, is the wrapping, the rod will fish exactly the same as it the same blank.
I disagree here; I can't see how Mikes build has added value to the stick.
Don’t take me wrong, your comments are valid, I just want to lay it out.
I am just trying to find out why the thread was started??
- There is no fancy wrapping work?
- There is no fancy handle?
- No fancy guides?
- No fancy finish?
- No fancy anything, other than him slipping in a little reel seat???
If it was a true custom build there should be something interesting in the build. I don’t see it?
Other than telling everyone you just finished building a factory rod, why did you start the thread Mike?
Am I trying to be contravention, yes, only because I believe that custom rods should add value. Trust me I am not trolling, just trying to make a point.
If you're going build a custom stick then, then do it properly. Like one of those images you(Mike) posted, make it something special.
If, like in this case, you’re doing the cottage work, why shout it from the roof tops, marketing? Show us some thing trick Mike, something I want you do on my rod. Not just horn blowing.
If you've read this far, and think it is a load of crap, sorry to waist your time...
Mike McKeown
You're either fishing or waiting...
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