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Thread: NZ rigs, yarn indicators and the short comings

  1. #1
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    Default NZ rigs, yarn indicators and the short comings

    The participants on the Nymphing Master Class, are all aware of my "dislike" in the New Zealand rig and Yarn indicators.

    Herewith a very short outline of my experiences with New Zealand rigs and what I consider the short comings of the New Zealand rig's shortcomings.

    When questioned, on which fly most of the fly fishers catch the fish, using the New Zealand rig, it is almost unanimous, that it is the bottom fly.
    Asked how many takes they miss, the answer is normally, "quite a few"
    If questioned why, they normally respond that the bottom fly is probably the "right fly", but the missed takes, they blame it on "reflexes, too slow, missed the take etc." But why so little fish is taken on the top fly, they have not really thought about it.

    On the NZ rig, especially where the point/bottom fly is the heaviest in the rig, the leader is pushed agains the jaws of the fish.
    The fly in the in-line setup, cannot enter the mouth.
    A "take" is registered on the indicator, but no hookup occurs. Sometimes, the bottom fly will hook into the underside of the jaw. As the leader slides up the mouth, hooking on the outside of the bottom jaw.

    See the very basic attached sketch.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Korrie; 13-09-11 at 11:51 AM.
    Korrie Broos

    Don't go knocking on Death's door, ring the bell and run like hell. He hates it. (anon)
    Nymphing, adds depth to your fly fishing.
    Nymphing, is fly fishing in another dimension

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korrie View Post
    The participants on the Nymping Master Class, are all aware of my "dislike" in the New Zealand rig and Yarn indicators.

    Herewith a very short outline of my experiences with New Zealand rigs and what I consider the short comings of the New Zealand rig's shortcomings.

    When questioned, on which fly most of the fly fishers catch the fish, using the New Zealand rig, it is almost unanimous, that it is the bottom fly.
    Asked how many takes they miss, the answer is normally, "quite a few"
    If questioned why, they normally respond that the bottom fly is probably the "right fly", but the missed takes, they blame it on "reflexes, too slow, missed the take etc." But why so little fish is taken on the top fly, they have not really thought about it.

    On the NZ rig, especially where the point/bottom fly is the heaviest in the rig, the leader is pushed agains the jaws of the fish.
    The fly in the in-line setup, cannot enter the mouth.
    A "take" is registered on the indicator, but no hookup occurs. Sometimes, the bottom fly will hook into the underside of the jaw. As the leader slides up the mouth, hooking on the outside of the bottom jaw.

    See the very basic attached sketch.
    See what you are getting at, moral of the story, ""catcht BIG TROUT'', not scared hungry brook trout in inches of water that they are happy to have.
    Handle every situation like a dog.- If you cant hump it, piss on it and walk away. --JASPER.

  3. #3

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    No-one should be fishing that method anymore...the point fly tied directly to the dropper's hook bend. The lighter fly (point) also get's swept ahead of the heavier dropper fly...so when a fish takes it, and moves upstream (as they normally do) there is a slight delay in detecting the take.

    I found the pic I posted here some time back, to show an improved way to attach flies to your leader when fishing with a yarn indicator. See below.

    The leader is basically a straight 9 foot section of 5.5kg Maxima Ultra-Green. To that, you attach a section of 3X tippet, about 40cm. Attach your heavier dropper fly to this.
    Then, take some 4X tippet (about 30cm) and make a loop in the end side. Attach the loop to the leader above the knot formed between the 5.5kg MU and the 3X tippet. Then, attach your lighter point fly to this 4X...it must be about 10cm to 15cm in length, no longer.
    So now...when you cast (or chuck) your flies upstream, the flies sink to the bottom and the heavier fly is always at the back, moving the slowest. The lighter fly is drifting in front...but now at least you are in much more contact with the flies. If either fly get's taken, the take is seen instantly on the yarn indicator. (Most times, providing you have no slack in leader.)

    So this method solves the issue Korrie mentions above, plus the very important issue of missing takes because the point fly is drifting ahead of the dropper fly in the tradtional NZ rig style.

    Hope this pic is clear and understandable...it was done very quickly!

    You can also add another fly, above the point fly...as long as you keep the heaviest "control fly" as the fly furthest from the fly line. make another knot, and use another loop. This way your little lighter "dropper" flies above the control fly move freely but will still show you a take very quickly.

    Try it...you'll like it!

    Last edited by Michael; 27-10-10 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    No-one should be fishing that method anymore...the point fly tied directly to the dropper's hook bend. The lighter fly (point) also get's swept ahead of the heavier dropper fly...so when a fish takes it, and moves upstream (as they normally do) there is a slight delay in detecting the take.

    I found the pic I posted here some time back, to show an improved way to attach flies to your leader when fishing with a yarn indicator. See below.

    The leader is basically a straight 9 foot section of 5.5kg Maxima Ultra-Green. To that, you attach a section of 3X tippet, about 40cm. Attach your heavier dropper fly to this.
    Then, take some 4X tippet (about 30cm) and make a loop in the end side. Attach the loop to the leader above the knot formed between the 5.5kg MU and the 3X tippet. Then, attach your lighter point fly to this 4X...it must be about 10cm to 15cm in length, no longer.
    So now...when you cast (or chuck) your flies upstream, the flies sink to the bottom and the heavier fly is always at the back, moving the slowest. The lighter fly is drifting in front...but now at least you are in much more contact with the flies. If either fly get's taken, the take is seen instantly on the yarn indicator. (Most times, providing you have no slack in leader.)

    So this method solves the issue Korrie mentions above, plus the very important issue of missing takes because the point fly is drifting ahead of the dropper fly in the tradtional NZ rig style.

    Hope this pic is clear and understandable...it was done very quickly!

    You can also add another fly, above the point fly...as long as you keep the heaviest "control fly" as the fly furthest from the fly line. make another knot, and use another loop. This way your little lighter "dropper" flies above the control fly move freely but will still show you a take very quickly.

    Try it...you'll like it!

    Big trout dont just swim upstream, beleive me, you know they have the fly.
    Handle every situation like a dog.- If you cant hump it, piss on it and walk away. --JASPER.

  5. #5
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    Michael, I like your explanation. I think for our trout rivers, your tippet selection might have to be re looked at, but for yellows, yes, you have a winner.
    I hope you don't mind if I steal your drawing to explain some theory to the juniors... will give you credit...promise.
    Disclaimer.... none of my posts are intended to be "expert advice"..just opinions from someone who is willing to help where he can.

  6. #6
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    I still use the NZ rig 95% of the time since I do almost no short line nymphing.

    The rigs with a dropper hanging loose on the leader is troublesome for me and it is often cast, check flies, cast, check flies, cast, etc. since the loose dropper winds itself around the leader, no matter what type of knot I try, it will find it's way around your leader eventually.
    I can usually see the dropper winding itself around the leader (10-15m casts) as I make the final presentation and then it is check flies time again. Once the line has been wound like this it is kinked beyond rescue and needs replacing further stealing some valuable time.

    In slower moving water the NZ rig has worked wonders for me and the fish was 50/50 on both flies, but in the stronger currents this ratio definitely drops with only the odd fish coming out on the control.
    Also what I have noticed is that I have much more success with up and across than straight upstream nymphing. I recon the point fly then comes close to drifting right next to/alongside the control fly, more natural and better hook-up chance.

    I recently saw people tying on 3 way swivels to try and combat the twisted dropper effect, but this does not sit too well with me. I dunno, this still belongs in my papgooi drawer...

    I know the NZ rig has it's drawbacks, but for the type of fishing I do I cannot find another rig that seems to work well. I will however give Michaels' rig a try again when next I hit the water, lets see if I can make it work this season around.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    Michael, I like your explanation. I think for our trout rivers, your tippet selection might have to be re looked at, but for yellows, yes, you have a winner.
    I hope you don't mind if I steal your drawing to explain some theory to the juniors... will give you credit...promise.
    Hi Andre

    yes sorry...this rig was designed with yellows in mind. And, Armand Flies and Garth Wellman first showed me this concept many years ago, they deserve the real credit.

    We even step down to 4.5kg Maxima Ultragreen, for even less drag of the leader through the water. I've even gone 5kg Double X Platinum Plus, as it's even thinner than the Maxima, but it's not as stiff so it's only good for close in fishing with no long casts being made. Lots of high-sticking too...just the indicator is on the water and maybe 30cm of leader after that. All the flyline and the rest of the leader is off the water. That ensures minimal drag caused by fly line on the water. Onviously constant mending in neccessary.

    With trout it will work on smaller streams and rivers, I'd just step down the leader diameter and the tippet, according to the fish size, etc.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWorld View Post
    I still use the NZ rig 95% of the time since I do almost no short line nymphing.

    The rigs with a dropper hanging loose on the leader is troublesome for me and it is often cast, check flies, cast, check flies, cast, etc. since the loose dropper winds itself around the leader, no matter what type of knot I try, it will find it's way around your leader eventually.
    I can usually see the dropper winding itself around the leader (10-15m casts) as I make the final presentation and then it is check flies time again. Once the line has been wound like this it is kinked beyond rescue and needs replacing further stealing some valuable time.

    In slower moving water the NZ rig has worked wonders for me and the fish was 50/50 on both flies, but in the stronger currents this ratio definitely drops with only the odd fish coming out on the control.
    Also what I have noticed is that I have much more success with up and across than straight upstream nymphing. I recon the point fly then comes close to drifting right next to/alongside the control fly, more natural and better hook-up chance.

    I recently saw people tying on 3 way swivels to try and combat the twisted dropper effect, but this does not sit too well with me. I dunno, this still belongs in my papgooi drawer...

    I know the NZ rig has it's drawbacks, but for the type of fishing I do I cannot find another rig that seems to work well. I will however give Michaels' rig a try again when next I hit the water, lets see if I can make it work this season around.
    Are you coming to the Vaal Trip at Oord Nebo on the the 6/7th November? I can show you then if you like.
    The loop method to attach the 4X to the leader above the knot, ensures the tippet is at a perfect 90ยบ angle to the leader's line. Also, don't make it too long (try 10cm) otherwise it will wrap all the time. And don't worry too much about it wrapping around the leader a few times, that's okay.
    The biggest problem I think you have is confidence in the set-up...if you are not confident with it, you won't have much success.
    It really is a great improvement on the conventional NZ rig.

    You can also try mini-tippet rings, they also work well to join leader sections and tippet sections.

  9. #9
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    I understand the theory Korrie, but in practice in the sort of rivers I fish, the typical "NZ rig" works well. In NZ the heavier fly is typically the one closer to the flyline and the point fly is smaller and lighter. Most of the takes are on the point fly because it is smaller and lighter I suspect.

    I don't like droppers because they tangle too much. If I am undoing tangles then I am not fishing so am less effective. The beauty of the NZ rig is that you can do long casts into a strong wind and still not tangle. When fishing smaller streams or to sighted fish in shallow water I prefer using a single fly.

    But hey, I am openminded here. I'd love to learn more effective methods...
    Life is a series of trout missions with that numbing feeling in between...

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  10. #10
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    One of the problems with the lighter fly, at the point is if you cast upstream, the lighter softer fly gets washed ahead of the "heavier" fly.
    This gives the trout, time to mouth the fly and eject it, without moving the indicator. With hungry trout or faster flowing rivers, it is not a problem.
    But with slower flowing water, pressurized fish etc, it gives them more than enough time to spit out the fly.
    Korrie Broos

    Don't go knocking on Death's door, ring the bell and run like hell. He hates it. (anon)
    Nymphing, adds depth to your fly fishing.
    Nymphing, is fly fishing in another dimension

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