tight loops vs opn loops

[yella]

hey Yella, i dont understand or put together why maxima is too thick, tapering a leader needs different thickness, are you referring to strength at thickness compared to other brands?
i used maxima for my leaders from butt end to 2x or 3x (depending on formulae for a specific leader) and havent had any strength issues but more abrasion issues

Hi dollar, exactly, the thickness for a 3kg breaking strength maxima is way much more than with the double X platinum. The double X is also much more supple - I think it allows for nicer more natural movement in the water. The abrasion resistance on the thicker lines is better though - if I know Im gonna fish somewhere where smallies will run me round rocks in shallows I prefer berkley (is it spelled that way?) vanish. Too thick really for my liking but it holds up in tough conditions.

I completely replace my entire leader each time I fish the vaal - so I go through quite a bit of line.

[Andre]

Yes all very true, Platinum plus is also good for Cape Stream and Trout stillwaters.

Hi dollar, exactly, the thickness for a 3kg breaking strength maxima is way much more than with the double X platinum. The double X is also much more supple - I think it allows for nicer more natural movement in the water. The abrasion resistance on the thicker lines is better though - if I know Im gonna fish somewhere where smallies will run me round rocks in shallows I prefer berkley (is it spelled that way?) vanish. Too thick really for my liking but it holds up in tough conditions.

I completely replace my entire leader each time I fish the vaal - so I go through quite a bit of line.

[dollar]

i found this on https://flyfishscook.wordpress.com/2...ficient-loops/ but copied it so that we didnt have to change pages. my main aim was to show the pics. funny thing is they call efficient vs in-efficient, putting it other words makes it feel like wright and wrong.

"EFFICIENT VS IN-EFFICIENT LOOPS
As you progress as a fly fisherman you are going to realize it takes a whole lot less energy to achieve the results you want. If you are just starting with casting a fly rod then this article will give you a good start. Knowing what causes the shapes of your loops will help you self-correct while practicing, making your time on the water a lot less difficult. There are essentially only two classifications for loops, efficient and in-efficient.
You might be asking yourself, what is a loop? A loop is the shape that the fly line creates as it exits the rod tip on a casting stroke. It looks like a horizontal candy cane. In fly fishing we are casting virtually weightless lures a.k.a. flies. So you would be correct in thinking, you don’t actually cast the fly but rather the fly line. Properly transferring energy through the rod to the fly line is crucial to presenting your fly in a manner that will fool a trout.
In-Efficient Loop 1: The Open Loop
An in-efficient loop or an open is a loop that takes a lot of energy to cast. In a windy situation, an open loop will only end in disaster. There are however, situations when opening your loop a bit is desirable. While casting heavy flies or weighted rigs for nymphing are a few of those situations. But, if you don’t know how to control the shape then you won’t be able to take advantage of it’s benefits when the situation calls for it.
loop1.jpg
As you can see in the illustration, the energy in this loop is dissipated in all directions. Not only will it take more energy to get this loop to unroll, it will cause your fly line land in a big pile in front of you. This loop shape is caused by an arcing motion made by your casting hand. Usually it is because a caster is using too much wrist or elbow. The power for your cast should come from the forearm and shoulder. If you aren’t moving the rod tip on a 180 degree plane you will find that your loops will do funny things.
In-Efficient Loop 2: The Tailing Loop
Another loop that we can classify as in-efficient is the tailing loop. Unlike the open loop, there are no situations where this loop shape is desirable. If you find that you get a lot of “wind knots” in your line and leader, then you are most likely throwing tailing loops.
loop2.jpg
It is relatively obvious how this loop can foul up the casting motion. When you find yourself getting knots in your fly line it is usually caused by moving the rod tip in a concave path. Often this happens because you are using a little t0o much power on your forward cast, but obviously the cause varies with each caster. Some of the best advice I ever received, was to slow down. That helped me get rid of tailing loops. I was told to see how slow I could cast and still make good loops. I was overpowering my cast and it was causing problems.
Efficient Loops: Tight Loops
An efficient loop can also be called a tight loop or a narrow loop. This type of loop is extremely efficient in the wind and enables you to present your fly with pin-point accuracy. The energy is mostly uni-directional and has high line speed. You will find that tight loops will require a whole lot less energy to control. Tight loops are also really fun to cast
loop3.jpg
You can see in the illustration that these loop shapes are going to be efficient because the energy is focused. To make a tight loop you must have good line speed (high line speed isn’t necessarily generated by high rod speed) and move the rod tip on a 180 degree plane. Much of what dictates the direction your rod tip will travel, is going to be your hand. It is important to accelerate your hand to a crisp stop in a straight line in order to achieve amazingly tight loops.
The top shape is a narrow loop. It is the ideal and most picturesque loop. It will deliver a dry fly magnificently and delicately. The bottom shape is the ultra mega super duper shape . Being able to create pointy loops is a direct function of crisp execution and high line speed. When you can consistently make pointed loops on command, you have entered the fly casting masters group. I might be exaggerating a bit but, they are awesome and deliver your fly in anEXTREMELY efficient way! Perhaps someday I will enter that club, but for now I just practice a lot.
Conclusion
There is a lot to be said about casting and forming efficient loops. This post barely scratched the surface but, understanding how to identify loop shapes is the first step to correcting your cast. "

[dollar]

lookint at the last pic, surely, when we referring to an open loop, it looks like that rather than the top pic where the cast could land like a mess

[Andre]

This is all fair and well, and I agree with all that is said here about efficient and inefficient loops. However, the author is not taking into account that sometimes an open loop is an efficient loop with regard to the fishing situation. He tends to be focussed here, on the "inefficient loop being caused by accident, or a faulty casting technique, and not when the open loop cast is required to perform the fishing situation better. When an open loop cast is done intentionally and controlled according to the requirement, it isn't an inefficient loop, and the cast doesn't land like a mess.

[dollar]

hey Andre, i'm getting wrong. i tried practicing, i tried to give it as much open loop i could. most times the dry fly landed on the leader. i was only trying to establish/figure out if the open loop was, lets say twice or three times the depth of a tight loop and if it was a fast cast or slow cast. would it be best to use a long rod or not.
sorry guys, i'm very technically orientated and not academic (difficult to read in between lines). i do agree there is a place for open loops just so used to shocking the the line to give max slack line for max free drift. performing a cast to get a big loop, is a big mess at the moment.

[Andre]

Don't try with a dry fly, it wont work. Its more geared towards fishing with multiple weighted flies, with a long leader. Also a rod suited to the purpose will assist, such as a 10 foot , with a middle action.
Dry fly fishing, where the flies have no weight or very little weight, a tight fast loop is better.
If the fly lands on the leader, you are probably getting a tailing loop, not an open loop. An open loop should keep the fly well away from the leader.

[Andre]

There are fishing situations where a tight loop is not always desirable. When casting with sinking lines, or when using heavily weighted flies, or very short leaders, better casting results with a more open loop. Once you understand that the distance the rod tip moves on the speed up and stop determines loop size, you can then alter the length of the stroke to get the desired loop size.

I don't know about the "short leader" comment , as I hardly ever fish a short leader, except maybe for Czech nymphing, and the cast , or "lob" used in Czech nymphing, is very much an over accentuated, open loop cast.

Here is an extract from this site. https://www.outdoors.net/outdoors/Article/570

[dollar]

Don't try with a dry fly, it wont work. Its more geared towards fishing with multiple weighted flies, with a long leader. Also a rod suited to the purpose will assist, such as a 10 foot , with a middle action.
Dry fly fishing, where the flies have no weight or very little weight, a tight fast loop is better.
If the fly lands on the leader, you are probably getting a tailing loop, not an open loop. An open loop should keep the fly well away from the leader.

thanks Andre, i used the dry so that i see what the leader was doing and i can see with weighted flies will help to turn the leader over.
in some of the casts, i did notice the tailing loop and cancelled the cast but what i did notice on some better casts is that it was more like between a puddle cast for downstream dry fly fishing and std overhead cast with a yank on the line after the speed up and stop (inducing slack line throughout) for/the reason of the fly falling on the leader. this all was on leaders lengths of 7 and 9 feet. this afternoon i'm gonna try on 15ft and 20 ft leader (i think i gonna struggle with these lengths but will give it a go, its fun).

[Andre]

http://troutsflyfishing.com/info/blo...-499-4-fly-rod

I found this very interesting, although rather old review, about the Sage 99, my rod of choice for the application described.....Its nice to see something written, that backs up my own opinion...for a change.
Anyway, the justification for open loop fishing is described rather nicely in this write up.