infinity-coming to a store near you.

[Michael]

Regarding the warranty issues...I agree with Gary. People are paying for the warranties, make no mistake.

Ask yourself...just WHY is a Sage Z-Axis (or whatever) R 6,000.00 plus???? Think about it man...no seriously...SIX GRAND for a fly rod??? You'd be hard pressed to find a bass rod, surf rod, freshwater rod, etc that even comes NEAR that price, yet has more rod and more intricate components than a Sage could hope for. What makes that Sage so special, in all seriousness? You want to tell me that it casts so good that it's worth R 6,000.00? Come on, that's bordering on ridiculous.

BUT...you know WHY it's R 6,000.00? Because they have a lifetime "unconditional" warranty and believe me the people take advantage of it (look at James's post up here). They take a portion of that price, and it goes to insurance (which is pricey), and also covers maybe one or two rods brand new at their cost...so they are not loosing out, believe it.

There was a 5wt rod shootout on the internet, and they took ten top rods and pitted them against each other. These are professional guys, and they used good lines and brilliant reels (all the same) on each rod.
They tested it at short, medium and long range...accuracy, feel, action, cost, the whole lot, and then took the scores and saw what happened. Here comes the interesting part...the Albright A-5 595 rod beat out some big names like the Orvis Zero Gravity, Thomas & Thomas, TFO (both finesse and TiCr-X models). It tied with the R.L. Winston rod. The guys even suggested that if you didn't know what you were casting, you'd think it was a Z-Axis.
We are talking about a rod (the Albright A-5) which retails for around R 1,800 to R 2,500.00...versus rods that cost almost THREE times more.

What's the real difference? The "top" names have a lifetime warranty...the Albright has a one year warranty against defects, there-after a replacement fee will apply.

So...is it REALLY worth spending R 6K on a rod, when there are clearly rods out there which are exactly the same, similar, or in some instances even better? It doesn't make sense to me.

I built up a Sage Z-Axis for myself...why did I do it? Because I've just always wanted a Sage! Okay, it worked me out half the price of a store-bought one...otherwise I would not have. But what rod do I use the most when I am out fishing? Not the Sage...I like fishing my A-5, my Rainshadow, and my Sage. I cannot say one is superior to the other.

The "unconditinal" lifetime warranties are good...but believe me, you ARE paying for it...and getting a product which may not even be the best out there anyway.

Oh, if you guys want to read that 5wt shoot-out, here it is. It will really blow you away, interesting reading. Everyone claims to have the best rods out there, but as Gary also said, there are no real cr@p rods out there today. What's the real difference? Price, in most instances. People just CAN'T believe that a rod that cost R 2,200.00 or so, can be the same (or even better!) than a rod that cost R 6,000.00. But you need to look at the difference...and most times, it's the warranty issue.
If you look at this test...read the individual rod's results and write-ups...it's really eye-opening.

http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/Fly...rodtesting.asp

regards

Mike

[MaXiMuM]

http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/Fly...rodtesting.asp

Funny how that test is the one used by all...

Good test, but there are others...

[Jason]

This is why I love flytalk. Thanks for the info Gary. Getting both sides of the coin plus a description of the rim without having some salesperson trying to make commission counts for a lot in my book.

[Michael]

Ask yourselves this...

This is a top-of-the-range saltwater reel from Penn. It's the "International VW" series. Spool capacity: 850 yards, at 50lbs mono. It's SRSP is $ 549.00
For heavy saltwater game fishing...this reel is the best. Features:
- Ratcheted Lever
- Loud, durable clicker
- Stainless steel reel stand
- Dura-Drag performance
- Push-to-turn adjustable pre-set
- Machined, gold anodized one-piece frame
- Forged and machined spool and side plates
- Four aircraft-grade, shielded, stainless steel ball bearings
- Machine-cut, stainless steel main gear, pinion gear, and drag cam
- Made in the USA



Now here's a top-of-the-line FLY fishing reel....the Abel Super 12 series. Capacity, 325 yards with 30lbs backing on. It's SRSP is $ 880.00.

Not nearly as many features as the Penn, but for a fly reel it's the best of course.



Does anyone see something wrong in this? Or is it just me?
The Penn is far more intricate, and takes a lot more fine work than the Abel. The features on the Penn are unbelievable, and the workmanship is world class. So how come the fly reel is almost double the price of the Penn?

I don't know about you guys...but to me it's a sense of just because it's labelled "fly fishing"...suddenly the price jumps.

Another scenario: On the Vaal...if you are a "pap-gooier", you get charged let's say R 20 per day to fish a river. If it's a "fly fishing" stretch of water...it suddenly jumps to R100, R140, or whatever. Why?? Same river, it's still fishing, so why the higher price?

Hence...look at "affordable" fly tackle with new eyes guys...they may just be more realistically priced, than the "top brands" with "unconditional lifetime warranties"...and that may be the only difference.

regards
Mike

[Jason]

I agree to a certain extent with your post. It is unfair that flyfishers get labelled as elitest and get charged elisist prices at certain venues.
On the tackle side however the whole thing boils down to quantities of scale. There are a hell of a lot more conventional , (for the lack of a better word,) anglers out there and there tackle purchases far exceed those of the fly fishing community. It's becomes a lot cheaper to manufacture conventional tackle in bulk because the suppliers know the market for their product is there. I am sure Stealth, Abel, Sage, etc do not produce near as much prduct as the conventional guys. I do however feel that we pay more for name brands that offer the lifetime bits for all the reasons mentioned above. I personally would wave the warantee for a better purchase price and pay for a spare section.
A question that has been nagging me though,about blanks and such being made in the same factory as top brands, is that just because they are made in the same factory does not necasserely (sp)mean that you are getting the same rod. Say for instance, and this is just a example, Sage uses a particular factory to make their blanks, according to their strict guidlines which they have stipulated due to intesive reasearch. The factory then makes the black to Sages specs, but under a licence. Usually this means they can only make this particular blank for Sage. Just because we get a cheaper, or rather more cost effective blank from the same stable does not mean it's a Sage, or whatever the case may be. Maybe I have missed something here and if I have maybe someone out there can clear this up for me.
A place where one can really compare apples with apples is with the cassette reels from stealth and explorer. They are damn near identical except maybe for a few aesthetic differences. With things like this you can be almost sure they have been manufactured by the same factory, not always, but most of the time, and you can judge your purchase by either brand loyalty or price, but are reasonably sure that it's the same product.

[MaXiMuM]

Ask yourselves this...

.....................

regards
Mike

Tell the whole story... one sided never does anything justice...

[dar]

Ha ha ha - you okes are like old women.....

Try Kitesurfing - a kite starts at about R10 000.00. Its made from the same material as tents only thinner and lighter. If you use it properly for two summer seasons.... it is kaput! No guarantees, warrantees or anything resembling a replacement part. 2 years and you are forking for the next one!
You need at least two kites to have any chance of kiting with most wind conditions and three if you want to have fun on most days. Thats 30k and you have not even got a board and the rest of your kit!

One thing I do agree with is that ffishing is a rip-off compared to other types of fishing gear. HOWEVER.....I would happily spend 5k on a reel that could help me land a big GT and probably still be in good enough condition to give to my son to use in twenty years time. Nothing comes cheap and nothing lasts forever and at the end of the day the guys need to make an honest living to bring their fantastic products to the table.

Keep the stoke up Gary... I have an el cheapo STEALTH and it has caught me some awesome memories. If your top of the range rod has any kind of warranty and it behaves as good as the best well then bring it on and lets go fishin'!!

[Chris Shelton]

mike
i was worried about this, and if i have offended, i appologise right now. i posted because of a comment about a new rod that we are testing. it was the thread on a 10' 3wt. It's not my intention to use the forum to advertise and if there is consensus that i have, please let me know. i find this to be a fine line on where to tread.

as for the ferrules they are std male-female design.

No offence taken at all Gary, well certainly not from me! I personally welcome this kind of enlightenment, whether it be from you, Michael, or any other dealer for that matter. It is a privilege to have you guys actively contributing on Flytalk, and I must thank you guys for being so approachable! You guys have already given so much to the site by just being here to answer our questions, and I think it is only fair that you guys are allowed to talk openly about your products. It certainly adds a nice personal touch hearing directly from you guys about exciting new advances and products in your companies and I don't see it as free advertizing at all. I call it give and take, so thank you for the enlightenment Gary! I wish you all the best with the launch of your new range and I for one look forward to seeing it.

Best regards
Chris

[Michael]

Tell the whole story... one sided never does anything justice...

That was the whole story...or am I missing something? Sorry, never been good with riddles.

My whole point was this: I know you, for example Mike, you are a huge Sage fan. My question is...why? If I could give you a rod that feels, casts and performs the same as a Sage, but at a third of the price...why would you still prefer the Sage? (Apart from lifetime unconditional warranties)
Is it just the fact that some people just like being able to say "I fish a Sage" or they like Sage rods in pictures next to trout because it looks so "elitist"?
I'm serious though...I just don't get it. Enligthen me...I'm really curious. Because that's the reason *I* built up a Sage...because I've always just wanted one. Now that I have it, I seriously cannot say it fishes so much better than some other rods I fish. And it's not always my first choice when getting to a stretch of water.

Yes I know I know...each to his own, and we all have our own viewpoints and likes and dislikes...but I really want you guy's opinions...and why you would fish a Sage (or any other "top" very expensive rod) above any other rod.

Regards
Mike

[Fisher]

That new Stealth rod (The grey one) is just great, it over deleverd way above my expectancies, "highperfomance and very userfriendly", the ever changing goal..........

The very best things in life (regardless of cost) will always have my attention.

That means if Product A is fifty bucks better (in construction, material, desighn, BACK-UP ect, )than B, but cost 1000 bucks more, product A will be better at performance than B, but B might be the best buy.......If I have the R1000, I am willing to spend that on A, If not I will have to be happy with B. But if B is better than A and cost less than A, and you take A, you are a D-box

Just looking at some girls, can make you feel exeptionaly good, others you have to go throuh the whole thing, to feel some thing...... (Mike that explanes why I prefur some things over the other, althoug "they are the same type of thing"

If you hold a Hardy in your hand, and it does not do any thing to your emotions, you are not a MAN !