COPE against Vaal Pollution!!

[FlyFanatic]

Guys, i just thought about something today while in a conversation about the new political party COPE. These okes really want to make a change, hats off to mister Lekota for the initiative!!

But that got me thinking, if we can get them on our side, to help fight this battle against pollution, especially the Vaal and its tributaries, don't you guys think we have an excellent shot at succeeding??

It goes like this, they need support, and we as the fly fishing community need for the pollution to stop!! there are A LOT of fly fisherman, many of them pretty wealthy, and COPE would really want these okes support.

So what about we as FlyTalk make an official request to the COPE media spokesperson, that if they clean up this mess, and repair/upgrade the necessary infrastructure at the sewage plants to prevent further spillages, then they would have our votes!!

I definitely would vote for them if they actually would do something about this problem, and i think most of you guys would agree??

Anybody have idea's on how to get this ball rolling? ;)

[chris williams]

Good thinking, Batman!

[Scythe]

Buying votes by adhering to a specific community's demands ?

Aside from that being somewhat unethical in a certain view, I think Lekota has more backbone than to submit to something like that. For my money if the protection of our natural resources aren't already near the top of their list, they don't get my vote.

[chris williams]

I agree, seriously, we can't have 'vote-rigging' or 'you look after me and I'll look after you' which may be a slightly more 'advanced' form of lobbying, but I did appreciate the thinking behind it!

[Andre]

A noble idea, however, I nearly spat coffe all over the screen whith your comment about "fly fishermen being wealthy" If you look at some of the past threads, you will notice just how schnoop fly fishermen actually are. There was a thread some time back about a guy who was moaning about R100.00 per day rod fee on the Vaal. I guarantee, if you had to start a thread about how many guys would contribute R1000 to a fund to save the Vaal yellowfish, you will have less that half a dozen respondents. Everything is about.."what will I get for as little as possible" If you think that a percieved "wealthy" group of anglers will be of value to cope, think again. Lekota made more out of the arms deal than you could possibly count. How valuable do you think a group of anglers who can't even scrape R100 rod fee will be to them.

[FlyFanatic]

no its not unethical, something needs to be done, and the current government fails to do so, so if COPE will do what needs to be done, well then they can have my vote.

im not going to vote for someone whom is not willing to take their supporters needs to heart. so if COPE wont agree, then we go to another party, till we get someone who is willing to make a stand.

Reason i said COPE, is because they have potential to become the new controlling party. ;)

P.S. Scythe, sometimes its good to be reminded about what really is your supporters need.. mr Lekota included. ;-)

[FlyFanatic]

Andre, valid point you made.. Well if i had a R1000 to donate i would, but since im still a student, money is something i dont have to contribute to this cause.. :(

was just trying a different approach, nothing else worked thusfar, so its worth a shot!!

[FlyFanatic]

oh and about the wealthy, maybe that was the wrong word, influential might have been more accurate.. ;)

[chris williams]

Dear Flyfanatic,

Shades of paraphrasing 'It's not what America can do you you, but what YOU can do for America'.

Your being a student, your obvious enthusiasm and dedication - and not bucks - will make a tremendous contribution! The more the merrier, tell your mates.

The average person is quick to complain yet often expects someone else to do all the work and as such is more likely than not to do b'gger all himself/herself

Keep up the good effort!

Cheers, Chris

[Herman Jooste]

AFAIK at least 10 members of Flytalk have joined SAVE, with each contributing financially. Not knowing how much each has contributed but guestimating R200 ea that's 2k extra for SAVE, who are doing something about it.

[FlyFanatic]

thanx chris, your kind comments is really appreciated!! :)

its just so frustrating!! feels like nobody has the "balls" (excuse my language) to stand up and do something!! cuz this REALLY is going to be the end of the Vaal if no one does.. :(:(

Sorry the nobody is not quite true, there are lots of people trying really hard to make a difference!! and they are the true heroes!! but the majority wont..

[FlyFanatic]

thats good to hear herman!! HAIL SAVE!!! and all the contributors!!!

[Andre]

Ok, give me the names of some "influential" fly fishers you know, who are behind the Vaal cause.
Are there any funds that you know of that are actively protecting and conserving Vaal yellowfish, and how many fly talkers are actively donating money?...let me guess.......
Its fine to scream and shout and moan from the sidelines, but when it comes down to brass tacks, all we really have are ideas, and no backbone. Let someone else pay to get the job done for our benefit.
We all love the Vaal and its yellowfish, but the people that are actually making a difference can probably be counted on one hand. Pathetic for a so called eltist group. I am so gatvol of the good intentions rhetoric. How many of the local Vaal anglers have actually got out there, and said, "let me help, what can I do", sorry I can't go myself, but here is a couple of grand to help the cause.
We should all be hanging our heads in shame, and taking a large portion of the blame for what has happenned. it has been going on for years. We all have been aware of the threats with the informal settlements and overloaded sewerage infrastructure, but all we can do is blame the "dumb ass" authorities after the horse has bolted, when we could actually have been out there doing some pro active, or preventative measures. I am afraid to say that we are a bunch of spineless selfish weaklings, who have no thought for anything other than ourselves. We are about to lose one of the most precious resources that this country has, and again, all we are doing is making some limp wristed attempt to involve someone else who really couldn't care. How many fly talkers are out there actually making a difference by scrificing time and money to improve the situation. Oh, sorry, you are all students and cannot afford it...cr@p

[Morne]

Guys, i just thought about something today while in a conversation about the new political party COPE. These okes really want to make a change, hats off to mister Lekota for the initiative!!

But that got me thinking, if we can get them on our side, to help fight this battle against pollution, especially the Vaal and its tributaries, don't you guys think we have an excellent shot at succeeding??

It goes like this, they need support, and we as the fly fishing community need for the pollution to stop!! there are A LOT of fly fisherman, many of them pretty wealthy, and COPE would really want these okes support.

So what about we as FlyTalk make an official request to the COPE media spokesperson, that if they clean up this mess, and repair/upgrade the necessary infrastructure at the sewage plants to prevent further spillages, then they would have our votes!!

I definitely would vote for them if they actually would do something about this problem, and i think most of you guys would agree??

Anybody have idea's on how to get this ball rolling? ;)

:eek:These are the same guys who got the rivers and infrastructure in the shape its in in the first place. you really think that they are going to be any different now?

[FlyFanatic]

that was uncalled for andre, at least im trying!! do you realize what studies cost these days??? i dont know what to do, thats why i asked help, but with such faaking negative responses, i could just as well leave it..

[Andre]

AFAIK at least 10 members of Flytalk have joined SAVE, with each contributing financially. Not knowing how much each has contributed but guestimating R200 ea that's 2k extra for SAVE, who are doing something about it.

Well this is awesome, please post the details so I can also have the opportunity to support them. Sorry i coma across harsh, but lets damn well do something.

[FlyFanatic]

not harsh, plainweg ongeskik.. gmmf

[Andre]

that was uncalled for andre, at least im trying!! do you realize what studies cost these days??? i dont know what to do, thats why i asked help, but with such faaking negative responses, i could just as well leave it..

yes I know and I appologise, I just an so hellishly bitter that this could have happenned. I am directing my frustration at myself as well, being one of the out of towners that fishes for yellows more than most, and I can almost see the writing on the wall.

[FlyFanatic]

well i feel exactly like you do.. it suckS!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[Herman Jooste]

Well this is awesome, please post the details so I can also have the opportunity to support them. Sorry i coma across harsh, but lets damn well do something.

Andre, have a look at, http://www.flytalk.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=5565

Thanks for the out of town support boet.:D

[Byron]

You vote for the party that best supports your interests and looks out for your community. If COPE is that party then vote for them, clearly the ANC doesn't look out for fly fisherman or any other community that I consider myself a part of hence they don't get my vote.

Fly Fanatic if you approach them with your concerns and they are interested in your vote they should in good conscience support you as much as you are willing to support them.

This applies to any political party. The ANC have proven themselves unworthy more than once however the voting majority doesn't give a flying fek about the ecology of a river let alone fly fishing or conservation.

[Andre]

Andre, have a look at, http://www.flytalk.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=5565

Thanks for the out of town support boet.:D

Thanks for the call Herman, i have looked at their site, and will study it in more detail.
I unreservedly withdraw my uncalled for comments, and appologise for any offense caused. I have decided to become a part of the solution, instead of simply being a critical bystander. I hope I am forgiven by all:o

[Herman Jooste]

This applies to any political party. The ANC have proven themselves unworthy more than once however the voting majority doesn't give a flying fek about the ecology of a river let alone fly fishing or conservation.

Byron, as long as any party has the vote of the "POVO" (as Mugabe so eloquently phrased it), which in fact means, the uneducated, superstitious, intimidated masses, or can at least rig the rural ballots, as not even 5% of the elderly can even read or write, but have an ID of some sorts, then that Party will win the "elections".
Then if you loose hands down, you delay the results for a month or so whilst you carefully rig the ballots, then declare yourself the winner.
And the World does ????? F*ck All. Why????? Who gives a sh!t about Zim anyway, they only have 20% of the worlds chrome, 12% of the worlds platinum, 0 % of the worlds oil.
Once the worlds other resouces are depleted, then we will go and re-colonize Zim, but this time American style:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[FlyFanatic]

Byron thank you!! At least someone is feeling the same way as i am!! ;)

Andre, none taken, all is fine!! ;)

Ill try to make contact with COPE and see if they are interested, will keep you guys posted!! :)

[Herman Jooste]

Byron thank you!! At least someone is feeling the same way as i am!! ;)

Andre, none taken, all is fine!! ;)

Ill try to make contact with COPE and see if they are interested, will keep you guys posted!! :)

Cyril Rhamaphosa, is well docemented ( African Flyfishing Handbook ) as a f/f.
I have no idea where his allegiences lie, ( I think it's making money ) as is Tokyio Sexwhale's, but if you can get some of these heavyweights on board all the better.

I will be persuing the actual users' of the Vaal.

Ek kan mos die Taal praat, en is op verlof vir 3 weke.:D

[Gerrit Viljoen]

Ek kan mos die Taal praat, en is op verlof vir 3 weke.:D

E-holidai :cool: :p

G

[Lardbeast]

What Morne said...

COPE are the turkeys who let it go to pot in this manner in the first place. You may get some crocodile tears from them but little else IMO.

[Herman Jooste]

What Morne said...

COPE are the turkeys who let it go to pot in this manner in the first place. You may get some crocodile tears from them but little else IMO.

Too true Lardo, but there again as you well know the Chameleon (sp) changes co;our to suit the "surroundings" amd then just Shclurrpps it's prey.

Not akin to a Gill's from the tap at 'Ngwenaya. :D

[FastAction]

If anyone votes for COPE, they must be nuts...imho. You really think the ENVIRONMENT is high up on their priority list?? All they care about short term is winning votes and support...hence, will say anything to win you over. As Lardo said...these are the idiots who caused this crap (scuze the pun) in the first place. OF COURSE they will say they will sort it out! This is how you win voters (to which Fanatic has already pleaded gullible to)...but in the end, they will do squat about the problems.

[FlyFanatic]

they havent tried in any way to win votes as ur saying.. READ THE MAIN POST!!!

i made a suggestion about going to COPE and asking for their help, in return they get a lot of votes from fly fishing folk.

its people like you who only give criticism, and dont want to actively contribute, that andre talked about.. :(

so what are you going to do about it hmm?? vote for the VF+?? or worse not vote at all?? do something good and join SAVE, at least then you can say you helped..

[FastAction]

they havent tried in any way to win votes as ur saying.. READ THE MAIN POST!!!

i made a suggestion about going to COPE and asking for their help, in return they get a lot of votes from fly fishing folk.

its people like you who only give criticism, and dont want to actively contribute, that andre talked about.. :(

so what are you going to do about it hmm?? vote for the VF+?? or worse not vote at all?? do something good and join SAVE, at least then you can say you helped..

I have joined SAVE.
I vote DP as in my opinion they are they only party with a little bit of brains and vision for the future (including the enviroment). Damn, who else IS there to put your confidence behind??

And like you said..."go talk to COPE, and in turn they will get votes from FF". That's just ludicrous. Why them anyway? They are the ones who are partly responsible for this mess!! Why not go chat to the DP for the same reason? Why not the ANC? Hell...why not the ANC youth league???

I am not critizising...I am saying that COPE will do anything at this stage to win votes, even promise to clean up the Vaal. But, they won't deliver, IMHO. So instead of wasting your time...vote for someone with a little more brains, plus also do your own bit (i.e. S.A.V.E., FOSAF, etc)

[Herman Jooste]

To summarise the above. Hold those responsible, RESPONSIBLE

If Mugabe gets away with his genocide of the "nDebele" in the late 80's and the current situation,he will have set the prescedent of all ever previous rulers except for maybe Caligula.
Third finger up to the rest of the world.:mad:
Our "president in waiting" is learning quickly.

Politics sucks. The only way to get something done is by taking the b@stards to court, lobbying the World Heritage Foundation, and maybe even finding the 2010 site and proclaiming with the evidence that is there, that our Government has no idea of how to cope with any medical/environmental/ terrorist activity.

[FlyFanatic]

all your comments are fair FastAction, and i agree with u to some extent. The reason i said COPE, is because they are the strongest opposition party to the ANC, and to blame them for what has happened, is kinda unfair. Who says it was they who are now part of COPE who was responsible in the first place??

also on the voting for them, i would only vote for them, once they have actually done something about the mess ( repair infrastructure, help clean river, etc).

im really glad you joined SAVE, forgive my unfair comment about you not actively helping the problem. :rolleyes:

the reason for this thread, was out of desperation, to contribute in saving the Vaal. please dont comment harshly, rather help and let us do something about this problem!!!

[Lardbeast]

...to blame them for what has happened, is kinda unfair. Who says it was they who are now part of COPE who was responsible in the first place??...

Errr..... Pretty much everyone. They were to a large extent the former rulers of this country who did absolutely sod all when the problem first put in an appearance, except to ensure their voter base was left pretty much unfettered to do as they please in sensitive environments.

[E.T.]

Lardbeast you are spot on!!!

Cope is formed out of old ANC blokes who couldnt do their job in the first place and went and started their own party because they didnt want to run under the new Boss.

All the things they chirp about over the news is a bunch of crap. It reminds me of the ANC in 1994. Empty promises upon empty promises. Politicians will tell people anything to get votes and once they are in parlement they couldnt give a rats arse to peoples complaints, worries and problems.

[Scythe]

ET, not to digress off the thread, but any BLACK person who says that BEE and AA is fundamentally flawed and unconsistutional ... gets my interrest tweaked.

I'm neither for COPE nor against COPE, but ffs boys, for the first time since 1994 there is the possibility that the ANC can lose their carte blanche, do as we want and f@ck the rest of you mandate.

To me that is very exciting.

[Lardbeast]

...BEE and AA is fundamentally flawed and unconsistutional...


...And you don't smell a huge vote buying (and splitting) rodent in those words? If it was such a great idea, why was it not implemented when they were in power?

I believe any threat to either set of snouts in the gravy trough will see them kissing and making up faster than an African politician can set up an offshore bank account.

[Scythe]

Yes Lardo, but as your ever the pessimist and never have anything good to say other than to sit and criticise, I will take your comment with a pinch of salt.

No matter how you look at it or from whatever jaded pessimistic perspective you see it, a multi party system where there is no one party that has a distinct majority allowing it to ammend LAW at will, is good for the citizenship.

Ideally in a situation like that, the swing vote would be based on the ability of the party to deliver on campaign promises and ideals.

"If it was such a great idea, why was it not implemented when they were in power?"

If what was a great idea ? Re read my post.

[Byron]

I have joined SAVE.
I vote DP as in my opinion they are they only party with a little bit of brains and vision for the future (including the enviroment).

Try voting DA - the DP haven't been on the ballot for a while now :D

[Lardbeast]

I read it the first time. These are folks who had all the opportunity to change things (BEE and AA) while in power and failed to do so, but now see the problem as a chance to gain support among some.

Personal attacks? Some would see that as the last resort of someone who's lost the debate. Kicking off with them this early is more a reflection of the person you are than of me.

As for the swing vote, well these folks have already shown they can't even deliver basic services so delivering on promises may be a bit of a long shot.

I take your point about no one party being too powerful and I agree. However, I stand by my statement that any threat to the security of their position at the gravy trough will have COPE and the ANC reuniting like long lost brothers, more so if it's against what they perceive as being a "white" party.

[FastAction]

Try voting DA - the DP haven't been on the ballot for a while now :D

Whoops! My bad. :o I mean DA.

It's time for us to stand behind them I reckon...that's the problem with us, we don't stick together. (Or think "screw voting, what does it help?"...so wrong). They're the only guys that can seriously appose the ANC at this stage...and the only guys with some vision for the future, not just empty promises.

I'm not so sure voting for COPE will improve my life in the slightest though... :)

[Scythe]

I read it the first time.

I don't think you did because your response doesn't make sense, but lets leave that there.


Personal attacks?

Sorry if you took offense Lardo, but saying you are a pessimist is not a personal attack, it's a statement of fact, I am sure that anyone who reads your posts will agree and it really has nothing to do with attacking you but it has to be taken into consideration when one decides what weight to give a person's POV.


As for the swing vote, well these folks have already shown they can't even deliver basic services so delivering on promises may be a bit of a long shot.

So what are we to do then, sit with our hands in the air b!tching about the status quo when we already doom someone with a new direction to failure before they even launch? This is where you and I dissagree, if someone has an idea and the idea seems sound in principle, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and at least open the possibility that they could in fact pull it off and make it happen before dooming them to failure.


I stand by my statement that any threat to the security of their position at the gravy trough will have COPE and the ANC reuniting like long lost brothers, more so if it's against what they perceive as being a "white" party.

Well I'm no Soothsayer, so I can't comment on that, but then again I bet you our white forebears never saw PW Botha and FW De Klerk releasing Nelson or recinding the ban of the ANC either. Guess everyone gets the pond yanked out from underneath them every now and again.

Speculation is one thing as is pessimistically commenting from the side lines, though I share your sentiments I'd prefer to work in the here and now trying to make a difference in my own future as opposed to sitting back, shrugging my shoulders and saying "All is lost, All is lost !"

[FlyFanatic]

guys were drifting from the point here.. this is NOT what i wanted when i started this thread.. :(

thrashing about over political parties is not going to save the Vaal!!! my goal was to use a political party, to help us fix the problem.. ;) be it COPE or not

[Lardbeast]

...saying you are a pessimist is not a personal attack, it's a statement of fact...

And you know this how? You cherry pick posts that suit your view, ignoring others. Some would call my views realism rather than pessimism.


I don't think you did because your response doesn't make sense, but lets leave that there.


Perhaps if you read my response...:D



So what are we to do then, sit with our hands in the air b!tching about the status quo when we already doom someone with a new direction to failure before they even launch? This is where you and I dissagree, if someone has an idea and the idea seems sound in principle, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and at least open the possibility that they could in fact pull it off and make it happen before dooming them to failure.


They had the greatest opportunity to do so while in power but didn't take it. None of their rhetoric while in office showed any willingness to veer from the path they were on. They want to change now? That's a bit opportunistic. What's to stop them going down the old path once they have what they want - our votes?


Well I'm no Soothsayer, so I can't comment on that, but then again I bet you our white forebears never saw PW Botha and FW De Klerk releasing Nelson or recinding the ban of the ANC either. Guess everyone gets the pond yanked out from underneath them every now and again.

Speculation is one thing as is pessimistically commenting from the side lines, though I share your sentiments I'd prefer to work in the here and now trying to make a difference in my own future as opposed to sitting back, shrugging my shoulders and saying "All is lost, All is lost !"

Neither did our forebears envision any of the technology around today. It's a red herring. The point is that they have past form in that their priorities lie not in maintaining and improving infrastructure, keeping the country running or making life better for everyone. Their priorities lie in keeping their grip on power and making hay while the sun shines.



"The state -- or, to make matters more concrete, the government -- consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get, and to promise to give it to them.

"Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time it is made good by looting 'A' to satisfy 'B'. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advanced auction on stolen goods."

-- H.L. Mencken

[Byron]

Everyone knows that Lardo is a Beer-ist. ;)

[frikb]

LISTEN TO 702 now!!!! Interview about the water situation

[FlyFanatic]

damn missed it!! please post a short summary about what was said!!

[Nymph+O-]

Naughts my ou ek cope nie, maak jy jy uit my bra?:p

[Lardbeast]

guys were drifting from the point here.. this is NOT what i wanted when i started this thread.. :(

thrashing about over political parties is not going to save the Vaal!!! my goal was to use a political party, to help us fix the problem.. ;) be it COPE or not

It's exactly the point - Is it worth selling your vote to a party run by members with a known track record of non delivery who probably hold some responsibility for the problem in the first place?

It's a public forum. Thread drift happens. Not so much in this case but complaining about what the public posts on an open forum is a little naive, don't you think?

[ShaunF]

...And you don't smell a huge vote buying (and splitting) rodent in those words?

Vote buying? From who? The tiny white minority in this country?

[Lardbeast]

Vote splitting also works in favour of the ANC and COPE. If they can draw the teeth of the DA a large thorn will be removed from their side in parly.

Having the official opposition as an offshoot of the ruling party with pretty similar views and little intention of rocking the gravy boat will make things far more comfortable for everyone concerned, no doubt.

[ShaunF]

Yes Lardo, but as your ever the pessimist and never have anything good to say other than to sit and criticise, I will take your comment with a pinch of salt.

No matter how you look at it or from whatever jaded pessimistic perspective you see it, a multi party system where there is no one party that has a distinct majority allowing it to ammend LAW at will, is good for the citizenship.

Ideally in a situation like that, the swing vote would be based on the ability of the party to deliver on campaign promises and ideals.

"If it was such a great idea, why was it not implemented when they were in power?"

If what was a great idea ? Re read my post.

100%

What people simply don't seem to understand is that democracy only works properly when there is a strong opposition party. It really doesn't matter what the opposition party is, as long as they enjoy strong support and have a reasonable number of votes in parliament. What then happens is that one party wins the election and is appointed to power, whilst the other party plays watchdog. Let the ruling party step out of line, and the watchdog will be there to point out the error of their ways because this makes the ruling party look bad, and the watchdog good, and will have an outcome of voter perceptions and support at the next election.

[FlyFanatic]

lardbeast, how do you get complaining about ppl drifting from the point and naive together?? :confused:

im just trying to keep the thread oriented in the right direction, thats certainly NOT naive!

if you really would like to ***** and moan, which you clearly like doing, start a new thread and go do it there, cuz this is not for what this one is about.

Secondly, you have no proof that the ppl who are in control of the new party, were actually the ones responsible, thats your own opinion. why not give them a chance?? the DA certainly hasnt gotten anywhere in the last 10 years, though ive been voting for them too..

i just think its time to look at new alternatives, and that is my personal opinion

[srt007]

Just an idea, use it don't use it....

This article http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20081210115729136C605088 on IOL states that they (COPE) have a facebook group...
An extract from the article: "Facebook has become a region because of the number of ideas that have come up from people who registered on our page. We will have 50 delegates representing those Facebook members at our conference," said Lobe.

So maybe post your ideas on their facebook group and see what happens...

(I personally haven't seen the group, nor am I even going to search for it on facebook, don't have the time today...)

cheers

[FastAction]

100%

What people simply don't seem to understand is that democracy only works properly when there is a strong opposition party. It really doesn't matter what the opposition party is, as long as they enjoy strong support and have a reasonable number of votes in parliament. What then happens is that one party wins the election and is appointed to power, whilst the other party plays watchdog. Let the ruling party step out of line, and the watchdog will be there to point out the error of their ways because this makes the ruling party look bad, and the watchdog good, and will have an outcome of voter perceptions and support at the next election.

Cool...why dont we just ALL vote for COPE...and let the DA completely fall to pieces. Thats a great idea...I'm sure with the ANC and COPE closely "watching" each other this country would be MUCH better off.

Yeah right...its still African mentality dude. I'm so sick of the "give the land back to the people" bullshit. If they REALLY want to give the land back to the ORIGINAL "people" who were here, then give it back to the Bushmen. They were here way before the black or white people.

In the end, its a sad fact that while the "white minority" built this country up to prosper (mining, agriculture, exports, education, etc etc etc) it it now being raped by incompetent fools mostly. And thats a FACT.
The only guys who think further than their noses and are not so intent on riding a gravey train, is the D.A...therefore they will always have my support. I cannot vote for numbskulls who promise the earth and dont deliver.

And anyone who thinks the D.A. hasnt made an impact hasnt watched the polls. They have vast support...so much so that they won power in the Western Cape (I think...or somewhere in the Cape region). To win majority votes in any region in S.A. over the ANC is no mean feat. Unfortunetely the "people" are like sheep...they will keep falling for the ANC's empty promises, and keep voting for them. They are voting with their hearts (albeit misguided) and heritage, and not with their brains.

Politics is a BS issue anyway...thats why we should ourselves throw our weight behind guys like SAVE and FOSAF, to name a few. THESE are the guys dedicated to fighting for the environment...not the politicians.

[frikb]

damn missed it!! please post a short summary about what was said!!

In a nutshell all this pollution basically affects the food that is produced by farmers that uses the Vaal river as a source of water. You can download a podcast of the interview from 702's site. I missed one last night I need to get that one as well.

[FlyFanatic]

nice! thanx frikb!!

srt007, thats not a bad idea!! im not the most avid facebooker i must admit, but will give it a look, nothing to lose!! all for the good ;)

[Lardbeast]

lardbeast, how do you get complaining about ppl drifting from the point and naive together?? :confused:

im just trying to keep the thread oriented in the right direction, thats certainly NOT naive!

if you really would like to ***** and moan, which you clearly like doing, start a new thread and go do it there, cuz this is not for what this one is about.

Secondly, you have no proof that the ppl who are in control of the new party, were actually the ones responsible, thats your own opinion. why not give them a chance?? the DA certainly hasnt gotten anywhere in the last 10 years, though ive been voting for them too..

i just think its time to look at new alternatives, and that is my personal opinion

The people running the new party are the same ones who were previously in power as the ANC who allowed this kind of pollution to take place for years while doing nothing about it, despite plenty of calls for action. Enough proof for you? Why would you give them another chance to cock it all up again?


The naivete is in expecting those on a public forum to post what you want them to post. Thread drift happens, people post what they want to. Getting upset about it is pretty pointless.



What people simply don't seem to understand is that democracy only works properly when there is a strong opposition party. It really doesn't matter what the opposition party is, as long as they enjoy strong support and have a reasonable number of votes in parliament. What then happens is that one party wins the election and is appointed to power, whilst the other party plays watchdog. Let the ruling party step out of line, and the watchdog will be there to point out the error of their ways because this makes the ruling party look bad, and the watchdog good, and will have an outcome of voter perceptions and support at the next election.

My answer to this post precedes it.

I'm not against a strong opposition and have no idea where you got the idea I am. Unfortunately, I don't believe COPE will be a strong opposition due to their aims and ideals being too closely aligned with those of the ANC. The DA is probably our best hope in this regard, small as they may be. To split the vote in order to support a crowd who are nothing more than ANC Lite could have serious consequences.

[ShaunF]

Cool...why dont we just ALL vote for COPE...and let the DA completely fall to pieces. Thats a great idea...I'm sure with the ANC and COPE closely "watching" each other this country would be MUCH better off.

Huh ? Is the DA not an opposition party? Read my post again. "The opposition" need not, nor should be only one party. I refer to "the Opposition" as a singular or plural.



In the end, its a sad fact that while the "white minority" built this country up to prosper (mining, agriculture, exports, education, etc etc etc) it it now being raped by incompetent fools mostly. And thats a FACT.

Umm yes, but who exactly was it that prospered? The nation or a couple of people who were lucky enough to be born with the right colour skin? All thats happened is those resources that used to only cater to the needs of a couple of million people have now been redirected to the masses. What did you expect? Nothing to change? Economics 101 would be a good starting point for you and others.

And you mean to tell me that the country was not being raped prior to '94? Ignorance is bliss it seems. I suggest you do a little more research into our previous government's escapades. It seems their propaganda and censorship really did work as planned, but be rest assured that many many of our pre '94 government officials were equally as shady, and made their retirement fortunes through dubious means.



The only guys who think further than their noses and are not so intent on riding a gravey train, is the D.A...therefore they will always have my support. I cannot vote for numbskulls who promise the earth and dont deliver.

Don't be so sure about that. Polititian's the world over all have the same primary goal - to maximise the number of votes they receive. They will all make promises to attract the support of as many voters as possible. Once again, a course in Public Economics wouldn't hurt you. I have no doubt that if it were the DA running the country with a 70% majority that the gravy train would still be steaming away down the tracks, albeit with different passengers. The biggest problem is the size of the majority vote that the ruling party has. Any party with such an overwhelming majority is effectively left unchecked. This means there is little to no accountability for their actions. If that number decreases significantly, things will change for the better because they will no longer be able to get away with the things they currently get away with.

[ShaunF]

I'm not against a strong opposition and have no idea where you got the idea I am. Unfortunately, I don't believe COPE will be a strong opposition due to their aims and ideals being too closely aligned with those of the ANC. The DA is probably our best hope in this regard, small as they may be. To split the vote in order to support a crowd who are nothing more than ANC Lite could have serious consequences.

I disagree. COPE will take mainly ANC votes with them, thus strengthening the opposition. Also, do you really think they will again side with the ANC? The going's on reported in the media would certainly signal to me that there is no love lost between these 2 parties, and that they've parted ways for good.

But I tell you what, lets revisit this topic in a year or 2 and see who was right. Deal? :cool:

[ShaunF]

A couple of links for those who still think the last government did such a sterling job and want to educate themselves:

http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/subjindx/134corr2.htm

http://www.allbusiness.com/specialty-businesses/minority-owned-businesses/4105109-1.html

http://wedc.lboro.ac.uk/conferences/pdfs/29/Bannister.pdf

[Lardbeast]

I disagree. COPE will take mainly ANC votes with them, thus strengthening the opposition. Also, do you really think they will again side with the ANC? The going's on reported in the media would certainly signal to me that there is no love lost between these 2 parties, and that they've parted ways for good.

But I tell you what, lets revisit this topic in a year or 2 and see who was right. Deal? :cool:

Fair enough. Something about leopards and spots springs to mind though.

The problem I see is that they have the same leanings and basic ideology. That doesn't equate to a strong opposition IMO. To allow the vote to be split in this manner, leaving in opposition a mirror image of govt who have shown themselves to be a waste of blood and organs, would be very dangerous and not at all in the interests of the country.


Edited to add that both parties are as prime an example of Orwellian doublethink as you'll find anywhere. They're able to hold two contradictory thoughts simultaneously in their heads and believe both.