CTS at the forefront again...

[Michael]

PRIME SERIES FLY BLANKS

Once again, CTS (Composite Tube Systems, New Zealand) has proved to be the top of the blank manufacturing innovators. It never ceases to amaze me how these guys keep thinking of new ideas, new innovations, and new ways to satisfy the fly fishing community.

In addtition to their incredible selection of blanks already on offer, they have come up with a new fly rod blank system, called "Prime Series Fly Blanks".
They are engineered and built to order - your fly blank built to your exact requirements.

Now yes, I know they have always offered custom engineering...but it had to be requested and discussed, and then only could you finally go ahead.
Now, there is a tool that rod builders can use for themselves, or give a client and say..."tick the boxes old chap, and your dream fly rod will happen..."
And the price can be calculated immediately. Mix and match between all their options to get your own unique design.

Basically all there is a sheet to fill out. On it, it has all the options you could hope for, to truly get a fly rod blank to your EXACT specs. Simply by ticking the boxes.

The options on the page are...

POWER RATE
(Also known as the taper of the blank. It will govern how your blank loads and delivers the power needed.)
SL - Slow
MS - Medium Slow
MD - Medium
MF - Medium Fast
FS - Fast

(On the page I send out, each power rate has a more in depth description)

TIP SYSTEM
D - Delicate (Softer tip for extra sensitive delivery)
A - All Performance (Superb all round performance. Affinity X and MZ use this system)
X - Extra (Superior line pick up, quicker loading and full delivery)

LENGTH
Choose from 6'0" through to 12'0" (in 3" increments)

PIECES (or rod sections)
Choose from 2, 3, 4, 5, or six pieces.

LINE WEIGHT
Choose from #0 to #14.

COLOUR
Choose from 22 colours. (That's right...22!)
Alpine White, Candy Apple Red, Charcoal, Cobalt Blue, Emerald, Forest Green, Golden Olive, Golden Plum, Honey Brown, Jet Black, Latte, Lemon, Olive, Natural P2000, Plum, Satin Black, Satin Brown, Satin Olive, Satin White, Silver, Tangerine, Titanium.

So...for instance, you tick off the boxes as follows...
PF-MS-D-773-5 Latte
Means Prime Fly, Medium Slow, Delicate Tip, 7 Weight, 7'3", 5pce, Latte colour.

Your price is then calculated Per line weight, per foot, per inch, and per piece. These are set prices so I can work out immediately what the blank will cost. It's really simple and a fantastic tool for anyone looking for a specific blank with very specific specifications, and needing a price on the spot. It can now be worked out immediately.

And imagine...if you're ever wanted a rod with a powerful butt, but with a delicate tip, in Satin Olive, in #0, in 6 pieces, in 12 foot...whatever!!! You can have it... :)

Well done to CTS...it's no wonder they are now so popular world wide. I look forward to the next innovation!

[damage]

so what does a medium fast 12' 3wt jet black A tip 5 piece cost ??

/d

[smallstreams.co.za]

Looks good - I just wonder how well the research on each individual taper is done with these "limitless" configurations?

[Korrie]

Lovely inovation.

You can dream up the "super" rod.
You will get exactly what you ordered.
You are not always sure what the finished product will be.
as you have never even fished the rod that you dreamt up.

But for the fly fisher that knows what he wants, this is stunning.


as for Mario's comment, how many other tapers are available from Sage, G Loomis etc. those tapers etc are the product of what a rod is supposed to be for a top fly caster/fisher.
You just end up with the one that you like best, or best suited to your style.


This might be an interesting little research.
Lets see how many fly fishers have casted a soft, medium, medium-fast, and fast rods all in the same day.

How many have fished with different rods and different actions?
How many fly fishers have fished/cast etc a specific style of rod, with some one explaining to them why a specific rod has certain characteristics?

Over the last year or 2, I have come in contact with a lot of fly fishers, via the Nymphing Master Class.
For quite a few, I asked why they have a specific rod etc.

Almost all of them said, because the guy in the fly shop said I should get this.
Or my friend said, this is a good rod.

I would go as far as to say, that up to 70% of the rods are not suitable to the specific fly fishers needs, or that there is a rod more suitable to their specific style of fishing.

a couple of examples,
a. a fairly newby to SM yellows, has a super fast rod. (broom stick)
b. a guy starting to fish the cape streams, with a very fast #3. (because you need punching power into the wind)
c. a short rod, so that you can get closer to the fish. SM Yellows.

these were advised, supplied by experienced fly fishers/shops.
With none of the rods, in the above mentioned cases suitable for the fishing.

Maybe I am getting to technical, regarding the whole rod issue, But it is amazing to see the difference, in a fly fishers enjoyment, when he gets handed a rod more "suitable" and the immediate enjoyment, he gets from it.

[smallstreams.co.za]

as for Mario's comment, how many other tapers are available from Sage, G Loomis etc. those tapers etc are the product of what a rod is supposed to be for a top fly caster/fisher.
You just end up with the one that you like best, or best suited to your style.

My comment on tapers is a little more complex than that Korrie ;)

[Andre]

My problem with a concept like this, is that sure, while you can decide the exact type of rod you want, the risk is also there, for an innexperienced person, to mix and match the wrong pieces to do the wrong thing , and end up with a dog, The brand and the concept then gets slagged off, and everyone believes it is rubbish. While in principal, I believe it could be a good theory, the level of experience among most fly fishers, is not to the standard where they know exactly what taper and action they need for any particular application. There are very few people who know exactly the actions and tapers of the best rod for all applications. Most guys will ask for a "good casting rod", or a "good all rounder", or "something for yellowfish" etc. All you do then, is go back to the standard offerings, and ignore all the confusing "mix n' match stuff".

[Korrie]

Andre
I agree with you, but for someone like you, who knows exactly what he wants, this could be the answer to all your prayers. :):p

[NeilRowe]

My problem with a concept like this, is that sure, while you can decide the exact type of rod you want, the risk is also there, for an innexperienced person, to mix and match the wrong pieces to do the wrong thing , and end up with a dog, The brand and the concept then gets slagged off, and everyone believes it is rubbish. While in principal, I believe it could be a good theory, the level of experience among most fly fishers, is not to the standard where they know exactly what taper and action they need for any particular application. There are very few people who know exactly the actions and tapers of the best rod for all applications. Most guys will ask for a "good casting rod", or a "good all rounder", or "something for yellowfish" etc. All you do then, is go back to the standard offerings, and ignore all the confusing "mix n' match stuff".

I agree totally with you Andre. Computer generated tapers generally get backed up by extrensive field testing. One offs, or true custom tapers, sounds like a marvelous idea, but who is capable of specifying exactly what one wants. (As Denton amusingingly hinted at).

I'm very curious as to following the progress and feedback as Mike builds these.

I know the bamboo makers produced a helluva lot of unworkable tapers until success was achieved.

[NeilRowe]

To illustrate my point about tapers etc, read this

http://www.overmywaders.com/index.php?Montagnespeaksout

I'm a nuclear engineer and this is beyond me

[Gerrit Viljoen]

To illustrate my point about tapers etc, read this

http://www.overmywaders.com/index.php?Montagnespeaksout

I'm a nuclear engineer and this is beyond me

Some useless info to this thread. This guy rocked the world with his UV theories and fly design. ;)

[nkula_nkula]

Andre, I take your point. But I think this is a highly customised service and rod builders should disclaim from the outcome if someone customises their rod specs...

I think it is a great idea, however has rather limited application (in SA) as most flyfishermen in the SA market are not ready for this much choice.

[Michael]

so what does a medium fast 12' 3wt jet black A tip 5 piece cost ??

/d

NZ$ 412.50...which is R 2,345.08 for the blank. Want to order it? :D

You laugh...I've just seen a guy in the States build up a 2/3wt, 11 foot, 4 piece rod for a guy in Europe for French nymphing.
Hell, I've even done a 2wt, 10 foot rod for a guy in the Czech republic. So your 3wt 12' is not so far-fetched...

Look, this system is not aimed at the beginner who has no clue what he actually wants. This is for a guy who has some experience, fishes regularly, has fished a few rods and knows what he likes and what he needs.

I, as a rod builder, am still there to assist the "newish" or even advanced guy to choose the correct set-up for his needs. My standard questions are always:
"What fish are you going to target? Where are you going to fish this rod? What rods do you currently fish, and what do you like/dislike about them?"
Knowing those answers, gives me a pretty good idea of what set-up to suggest to the guy.

This CTS system is designed for the guy who has fished some rods, knows what he wants, and can put a decent set-up together.
I would not suggest a beginner just take the sheet, tick the boxes and hope for the best. That's just a recipe for disaster.

[Andre]

Andre, I take your point. But I think this is a highly customised service and rod builders should disclaim from the outcome if someone customises their rod specs...

I think it is a great idea, however has rather limited application (in SA) as most flyfishermen in the SA market are not ready for this much choice.

Yes, agree. I think it also is going to put a lot more responsibility on the shoulders of the rod builder to come up to the solution for the angler. A disclaimer is only going to absolve the rod builder, and not neccessarily prevent the brand for unjustified abuse from the guy who gets it wrong. I wouldn't want to be the guy offerring a "mix n' mach" solution to a market that might not understand the complexities of the tapers and how they relate to specific fishing applications. It's dangerous. I think CTS are taking a huge risk with this approach. Cts have a reputation for producing good quality blanks at good general pricing, but bad decisions from innexperienced people who think they know better, could give the entire brand a bad name.

[nkula_nkula]

Yes, agree. I think it also is going to put a lot more responsibility on the shoulders of the rod builder to come up to the solution for the angler. A disclaimer is only going to absolve the rod builder, and not neccessarily prevent the brand for unjustified abuse from the guy who gets it wrong. I wouldn't want to be the guy offerring a "mix n' mach" solution to a market that might not understand the complexities of the tapers and how they relate to specific fishing applications. It's dangerous. I think CTS are taking a huge risk with this approach. Cts have a reputation for producing good quality blanks at good general pricing, but bad decisions from innexperienced people who think they know better, could give the entire brand a bad name.

A risk for CTS, yes most certainly. But one in my opinion certainly worth taking. People who are gonna slag off custom blanks are idiots (IMHO) and will be in the minority anyway in a proportion to total blank sales...

[smallstreams.co.za]

NZ$ 412.50...which is R 2,345.08 for the blank.


Cts have a reputation for producing good quality blanks at good general pricing

I'd rather get something else personally.

[Andre]

I'd rather get something else personally.

Mario, you have hit the nail on the head here. I think that the CTS range, is catered more for the "all rounder", which you and I certainly are not, hence our preference for more specialised tapers. It cannot be denied, that in their market, CTS are good, and perhaps have adopted this approach in an attempt to provide a more specialised feel to rods that are actually more all rounders, without having to develope any specialised tapers. I personally don't believe that a specialised rod for any application, can adequately be produced by mixing a range of different tapers, in any qualified decision making process. If someone gets it right and produces a gem of a rod, then great, but it's going to be more by luck than qualified judgement. The guy who is looking for a specialised rod, is going to buy a specialised taper, and not build one up with pieces from a range.
Look, let me not get ahead of myself here. It might just be a brilliant concept, that we just don't understand. The future might just be the modular rod route... buy one butt section from Sage, get two middle sections on different tapers, and a furter four tip sections of different tapers again, and different lengths.... that way you have a trout dry fly rod.. wanna nymph, quickly change a section or two.. or something like that.... dunno hey, I'm not quite sold on the concept just yet, but am prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt. I remember what some of the writings were on about, when glass rods were being mooted, and then graphite... lots of scepticism, so I'm prepared to wait and see before getting to negative about it.

[Michael]

I'd rather get something else personally.

Hey, that price was for THAT rod that Denton joked about...certainly a customised piece and worth the extra money (if that's what you wanted) 'cos NO-ONE else will be able to offer you that configuration!

Their "normal" day-to-day blanks are way cheaper (you should know this Mario, dunno why you're slagging their prices. You know that price is for a highly customised piece).

Example...a CTS Affinity MX 5wt, 9 foot, 4 piece blank is NZ$ 290.00...which is about R 1,705.88.
I dare anyone to get a better quality blank for that price. Once you actually fish the CTS rods, you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Korrie]

If you are happy with getting your dream blank, to your exact specs, WOW, it is a bargain.

Imagine how you will praise CTS. An ambassador for life for the brand.
Singing their praises, every time you will be fishing the rod.

THe only down side, if some one else, fishes your perfect dream rod, it might not be their idea of perfect. ;) And they might be very disapointed.

I played with one of their custom rods, and the Cz fished with it as well.
With one or two very minor changes, it will be a super rod.

I think that a couple of guys are willing to play around with a blankor 3 until they get their "PERFECT" rod.

[smallstreams.co.za]

Look, let me not get ahead of myself here. It might just be a brilliant concept, that we just don't understand. The future might just be the modular rod route...

Haneda - 20 years ago ....

[smallstreams.co.za]

Their "normal" day-to-day blanks are way cheaper (you should know this Mario, dunno why you're slagging their prices. You know that price is for a highly customised piece).

Who's slagging them? Am I not allowed to comment on that? My bad!


Once you actually fish the CTS rods, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Built them, fished them, owned them, sold them. I personally did not like them aside from the Affinity One and even Vintage (I think you can read a lot into what I prefer in a rod from that) models that I have built for customers. It's a personal choice, that is all.

[Michael]

Mario, you have hit the nail on the head here. I think that the CTS range, is catered more for the "all rounder", which you and I certainly are not, hence our preference for more specialised tapers. .....................

How many CTS rods do you own and fish Andre?
You seem to base your comments on hands-on experience with all their blanks, tapers and actions.

I've fished more brands of rods than the average guy, and own 4 different models of CTS myself. Trust me, CTS is not just an "arb" blank manufacturer that turns out "all rounder" rods.

There's more to it than just assuming what these guys are on about. There's MUCH more R&D going in to their products than you assume. If you think they just slap out arb tapers and blanks...you are sadly mistaken, and once again blinded by marketing (and market) hype. The age old "I fish this brand...and everything else is crap" attitude.

As I said, this system is NOT for a beginner...it's for someone who actually knows what he wants, understands the physics a little, and can put together something that will work for him.

If you do not, or are a beginner, there are PLENTY of standard blank models to choose from. There is a blank that will satisfy anybody.
(Except Andre it seems......) :p:D

[smallstreams.co.za]

Off to Rhodes - looking forward to more on this topic on Monday - enjoy guys.

[Michael]

Built them, fished them, owned them, sold them. I personally did not like them aside from the Affinity One and even Vintage (I think you can read a lot into what I prefer in a rod from that) models that I have built for customers. It's a personal choice, that is all.

So, there IS a rod blank model in their range that you like! :eek: :p
And yes yes yes, we know...you only fish for 2" trout in trickling water. :p
(Joke, by the way).
You can still ask them to produce Affinity One's, the Vintage, whatever, you know. That's the beauty of CTS...they will produce something YOU LIKE.
And that's the whole point of this new system of theirs too.

It's for the guy who fishes a rod, likes it a lot, but says "DAMN I love this rod, just wish it was 1 foot longer"...or "I wish it was just slighty softer", or even "I wish I could get this rod in Tangerine!"
Well, you can.

That's why I said don't slag the price and say "I'd rather get something else"...because, where the heck are you going to get a 3wt, 12' blank except from them??? May be a little pricey, but you are getting exactly what you want, and no-one else can make them for you.

And besides that...their normal models are very well priced. And compares to the best out there. So in my opinion (and a crap load of other fly fishers around the globe) they are damn fine blanks.

[Stephen Louw]

Michael, perhaps the model for you is to come up with a few dream-team-specialised configurations yourself, and market them for the specific purpose you believe they serve. For example, using the CTS options, come up with an ideal Vaal nymphing rod and then offer it at a few different price points with different reel seats and fittings. Sort of like the Sage 99 but perhaps a little longer, more tip sensitive, and with customer input into colours. And a few specialised Cape Streams rods, etc.

[damage]

Hey gents my request wasnt an out right humor attempt :0

I recently started fishing a tenkara 12' and my latest 3wt is 10'6
and they both have some awsome features on the Cape Streams with regards Dry fly fishing
Im a shorty so the added reach gives me at least a few more meters drag free drift
Being able to get over currents to fish the other seam with out crosssing the prime water means its possible that you will spook less fish
you can also fish a longer leader easily (better control and storage) without fighting the flyline in and out of the tip top

in tight places you dont need to cast there you can "poke "your rod through

there are disadvantages too

weight acuracy and wind resistance

thats with out all the nymphing advantages so conclusion is I belive the 12ft stick could be an awsome stream stick

that being said I love my lil 8'6 stick on the streams too, so light and dainty



its just a gamble to spend 3-4k building a rod that may not live up to the expectation

But if i had some cash burning a hole in my pocket My order would be in allready

/d

[Andre]

Denton, you seem to have arrived at the point where you have discivered that there doesn't exist a single ideal stream rod. I have found that the diffent rods available, have opened up different possibilities, and allowed for much more versatility in the straem approach. Depending a lot on conditions there are definately more optionms open for experimentation.
For single dimensional dry fly, upstream fishing, a 7'6, or 8' 2wt or 3wt, with a medium to slow action, is the way to go. A longer rod for this type op fishing will also do the job, but not as well as a shorter rod. the shorter rod is definatly better for darting the fly into tight place, and by this, I don't mean into structure, I talking about accuracy into small pockets about 3 or 4 meters away. Put a couple of nymphs on, and you find that the slow action shorter rod, becomes limiting. While it can still do it, a rod approaching 10 foot, with a stronger mid section provides verasatility for fishing the nymphs in stronger runds, drifting them downstream, and helping to "stay in touch" on an upstream drift.
In conditions that we have recently, with higher flows, heavier nymphs and larger fish... the picture changes again.
With our streams being quite specialised in the aproach to techniques used to fish them most effectively, you also find that different sections of the rivers, require them to be fished differently, and therefore, a different rod for optimum performance. When the water recedes and warms up, you will find that a singular approach will be able to be more widely used. There is very little heavy nymph oppertunities in the low hot months of February and March, and conversely, limited dry fly opportunities in the months of high flows and we have had them over the past couple of months.
If I have to try and choose a singel , most effective stream rod for all conditions, I would struggle. My fishing has evolved to the point, where I don't believe it is possible for me.
To catch fish consistemtly on our rivers, in any conditions, and on any beat, you need a few rods.

[Ryan]

PRIME SERIES FLY BLANKS

Once again, CTS (Composite Tube Systems, New Zealand) has proved to be the top of the blank manufacturing innovators. It never ceases to amaze me how these guys keep thinking of new ideas, new innovations, and new ways to satisfy the fly fishing community.

In addtition to their incredible selection of blanks already on offer, they have come up with a new fly rod blank system, called "Prime Series Fly Blanks".
They are engineered and built to order - your fly blank built to your exact requirements.

Now yes, I know they have always offered custom engineering...but it had to be requested and discussed, and then only could you finally go ahead.
Now, there is a tool that rod builders can use for themselves, or give a client and say..."tick the boxes old chap, and your dream fly rod will happen..."
And the price can be calculated immediately. Mix and match between all their options to get your own unique design.

Basically all there is a sheet to fill out. On it, it has all the options you could hope for, to truly get a fly rod blank to your EXACT specs. Simply by ticking the boxes.

The options on the page are...

POWER RATE
(Also known as the taper of the blank. It will govern how your blank loads and delivers the power needed.)
SL - Slow
MS - Medium Slow
MD - Medium
MF - Medium Fast
FS - Fast

(On the page I send out, each power rate has a more in depth description)

TIP SYSTEM
D - Delicate (Softer tip for extra sensitive delivery)
A - All Performance (Superb all round performance. Affinity X and MZ use this system)
X - Extra (Superior line pick up, quicker loading and full delivery)

LENGTH
Choose from 6'0" through to 12'0" (in 3" increments)

PIECES (or rod sections)
Choose from 2, 3, 4, 5, or six pieces.

LINE WEIGHT
Choose from #0 to #14.

COLOUR
Choose from 22 colours. (That's right...22!)
Alpine White, Candy Apple Red, Charcoal, Cobalt Blue, Emerald, Forest Green, Golden Olive, Golden Plum, Honey Brown, Jet Black, Latte, Lemon, Olive, Natural P2000, Plum, Satin Black, Satin Brown, Satin Olive, Satin White, Silver, Tangerine, Titanium.

So...for instance, you tick off the boxes as follows...
PF-MS-D-773-5 Latte
Means Prime Fly, Medium Slow, Delicate Tip, 7 Weight, 7'3", 5pce, Latte colour.

Your price is then calculated Per line weight, per foot, per inch, and per piece. These are set prices so I can work out immediately what the blank will cost. It's really simple and a fantastic tool for anyone looking for a specific blank with very specific specifications, and needing a price on the spot. It can now be worked out immediately.

And imagine...if you're ever wanted a rod with a powerful butt, but with a delicate tip, in Satin Olive, in #0, in 6 pieces, in 12 foot...whatever!!! You can have it... :)

Well done to CTS...it's no wonder they are now so popular world wide. I look forward to the next innovation!

I think this is fantastic!! Limitless options really.. It can be dangerous, but if you cast a CTS model, you could then base your design around that.


My problem with a concept like this, is that sure, while you can decide the exact type of rod you want, the risk is also there, for an innexperienced person, to mix and match the wrong pieces to do the wrong thing , and end up with a dog, The brand and the concept then gets slagged off, and everyone believes it is rubbish. While in principal, I believe it could be a good theory, the level of experience among most fly fishers, is not to the standard where they know exactly what taper and action they need for any particular application. There are very few people who know exactly the actions and tapers of the best rod for all applications. Most guys will ask for a "good casting rod", or a "good all rounder", or "something for yellowfish" etc. All you do then, is go back to the standard offerings, and ignore all the confusing "mix n' match stuff".

Anybody who just picks random attributes and throws them together is a moron imho!! That's like buying a mini and thinking you could stick a 4x4 engine in there.. Firstly, how many beginners are even gonna go out and have a rod designed, nevermind trying to design one themself..... There are many "know it all's" out there who would even bugger this up... Chatting to the CTS guys would be the best option or even casting a few of their rods would probably be the best way to start..

I think this is a fantastic innovation, and with a bit of guidance you could land up with a superb product.... I was about to build up a Sage, but this has certainly changed my ideas..

[smallstreams.co.za]

Make a blank of your choice in 4 pieces. Take the exact choices and change it to a 6-piece rod - how will this affect the feel/action/dynamics of the rod? This is my concern - maybe someone can answer.

[nkula_nkula]

Make a blank of your choice in 4 pieces. Take the exact choices and change it to a 6-piece rod - how will this affect the feel/action/dynamics of the rod? This is my concern - maybe someone can answer.

Order one of each and see the results...:p

More importantly, how was the fishing this weekend?

[smallstreams.co.za]

More importantly, how was the fishing this weekend?

http://flytalk.co.za/forum/showthread.php?p=177596#post177596

[smallstreams.co.za]

Order one of each and see the results...

I have a pretty good guess of what the results may well be, so I'd rather not do that - I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards not being wrong on this.

It would just (for me) be interesting what CTS' reply to this question will be. If they can guarantee that all dynamics would be exactly the same if you change piece configuration only on a blank, then this would be a really great thing.

[Michael]

I have a pretty good guess of what the results may well be, so I'd rather not do that - I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards not being wrong on this.

It would just (for me) be interesting what CTS' reply to this question will be. If they can guarantee that all dynamics would be exactly the same if you change piece configuration only on a blank, then this would be a really great thing.

I'm calling Stephen tonight about some other stuff, will talk to him about this too and advise.

[petercoetzee]

anyone have a rod built on a revo blank in the country?

[Michael]

anyone have a rod built on a revo blank in the country?

Hi Peter

I've built up quite a few Revo Salt blanks...and they are exceptional. It has an Extra-Fast taper, and a moderate fast action. What this means is, the blank has an extremely powerful butt, and a good moderate-fast action in the tip. So it casts very well (smoothly), and upon hook-up has great lifting power to fight a fish. It's for heavy saltwater work...only available from 10 weight up to 16 weight. It's for off-shore brute fishing like Tuna, Sailfish, etc.

However, if you prefer a fast taper AND fast action (great power in the butt, AND great power to cast long distances into howling wind)...something similar to the Sage TCX...then go for the Affinity X rather. It's great as an all-rounder...and good for anything from bonefish and up.

[smallstreams.co.za]

I'm calling Stephen tonight about some other stuff, will talk to him about this too and advise.

Much obliged Mike

[markdej]

I have a pretty good guess of what the results may well be, so I'd rather not do that - I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards not being wrong on this.

It would just (for me) be interesting what CTS' reply to this question will be. If they can guarantee that all dynamics would be exactly the same if you change piece configuration only on a blank, then this would be a really great thing.

Surely they would have done some extensive R & D into the whole concept though? I mean as standard CTS offer multiple section configurations within their standard model range. I would have thought that they should have the process down pat, as its their reputation on the line.

I just think its a very novel concept that will take some dime to filter down to the relms of market place acceptance as few are comfortable enough with their understanding of rod dynamics to fly truly blind on an order.
(Myself included ;) )

[smallstreams.co.za]

Surely they would have done some extensive R & D into the whole concept though?

Do the math on the number of configurations that they would have to have tested - that equates a LOT of money to my understanding.

However, I am keenly awaiting Pratt's reply when Mike speaks to him.

[Bruce]

:Why go to all the trouble when you could just buy a GLoomis:D

[Michael]

:Why go to all the trouble when you could just buy a GLoomis:D

'Cos you want an actual good fishing rod. :p:D:p

Also doesn't help now that you can't get their blanks anymore...

[petercoetzee]

soooo Mike,

would you rather buy a Winston BIIX 10 or a Sage Z axis 10wt?

[Michael]

soooo Mike,

would you rather buy a Winston BIIX 10 or a Sage Z axis 10wt?

That's a difficult one...each person has his own personal likes and dislikes.
Check Bruce...he will fish a G.Loomis before a Sage, but others will fish Sage and never buy a G.Loomis. And so it goes...

I have zero experience with that Winston, but they are highly rated so anyone buying one will not go wrong. But I myself cannot comment on what it's like as I simply do not know.

It also depends what you want to use the rod for, of course. What fish? What conditions? Off-shore, from a boat? Or land-based, wading the flats or shore-break? Going to encounter lots of wind, or not?

You could choose any of the Sages, and be well off...Xi3, TCX, Z-Axis, even the new VXP...and it's about $200 to $300 cheaper than the others.

But, if I were forced to choose a Sage, for "general" saltwater work and a good all-rounder (and money was no object), I'd probably go for the Xi3...and then rather get the blank, and put my own components on with Recoil guides and oversize stripping guides.

[Michael]

Make a blank of your choice in 4 pieces. Take the exact choices and change it to a 6-piece rod - how will this affect the feel/action/dynamics of the rod? This is my concern - maybe someone can answer.

Okay, spoke the Stephen at CTS, and here's the outcome...

My concern raised, was when taking a 4 piece, 9 foot rod for instance, and making it into a 6 piece rod let's say...3 factors are affected in my opinion:

1. Overall weight is increased (more ferrules and material)
2. Stiffens the blank up a bit, making it "faster".
3. Swing-weight increases (more weight to the front of the rod, from the increased ferrules and materials. You now have 5 ferrules, instead of 3).

Stephen agrees with this, but says they do compensate for this in the construction and tapers, materials, thickness, etc.

Thus, using our example of a 5wt, 9 foot, 4 piece rod...and then taking the exact same rod but making it 6 pieces, they compensate to keep the weight, action, feel and swingweight. They in fact soften the flex a little to compensate for the stiffening up.

Also, CTS's "variable fit" also helps. The top fit length (of the ferrules) is only 40mm. This increases gradually to 75mm at the bottom ferrules thereby minimising the overall joint lengths to a minimum.

He stressed that they put a large amount of design into their multi piece blanks (mandrels and tapers, materials, processes) to ensure the action remains as true to form, regardless of the amount of sections.

So, this means you can get a rod in four piece, and then decide you really like it and want exactly the same rod in 6 piece for travelling. It is done, and the action and feel will be exactly the same because of the way CTS designs the tapers, actions, etc.

Using our example...a CTS Affinity MX 5wt, 9ft, 4 piece rod (available as standard in their catalog), and then making it a 6 piece...these are the specs (which he mailed to me as well):

Model: FM905-4 DN# 1.2 (4 piece)

Weight (g)---Butt Ø (mm)---Tip Ø (mm)
36.g-----------8.80-----------1.70

Model: FM905-6 DN# 1.2 (6 piece)

Weight (g)---Butt Ø (mm)---Tip Ø (mm)
36.g-----------9.20-----------1.70

As you can see, the weight remains exactly the same.
The tip diameter remains exactly the same.
The Butt diameter however, increased by 0.4mm.
That increased the butt power but is nullified by the increase in swingweight and softening of the rod. Hence, the two rod's actions and feel stay exactly the same. (Also, the mandrels and tapers are designed to get all the variables correct, on each section).

Hope that answers it for you guys...it certainly did for me.

It shows you how much R&D goes into the development of the rods and blanks from the top rated manufacturers. I'm willing to lay money on the line that the Far East makers of blanks do not put this amount of effort into their rods! :)

[petercoetzee]

"That's a difficult one...each person has his own personal likes and dislikes."

I think you got it wrong Mike, I asked which rod YOU would rather choose. Not which one you think I should choose. I seem to get that a lot when I ask people what rod to buy. I get the usual, well... "it depends on what you like, and what youre using it for, etc etc"

I seriously doubt if I listed a bunch of prerequisits that you could find me the rod that I would like the most based on purely that.

My taste is difficult at best and doesnt just relate to something as simple as action or utility. I dont like all fast action rods even though and in my experience not all fast action rods are good for long distance casting. i find some rods have a feel that I like and other dont. I like a rod that loads and releases in a crispier fashion than an xi2 (off the back cast).

I fish Sage xi2's and i dont like either and they dont feel fast to me. My best rods have been a 10wt Scott S3S and a 7wt Cortland CL (believe it or not)- that one even shocked me, absolutely fell in love with that rod.

I think the xi2's are great fighting rods but shit casting rods. For me anyhow. The action, although fast seems to lag and rebound. The only way to describe it is if you have ever driven a racing car with the anti-roll bar disconnected.... It just seems heavy and slow and not crisp and precise. I find to get the best cast with an xi2 I have to slow down my normal cast, which I must say saves my casting arm and works well with my 12. The 8 isnt fantastic. Its beautiful and fights well with surprising backbone but in wind with heavy flies its a slug. sis. That said it does present well, but we dont get the chance to sight fish on flat water in this country so that doenst take preference in my opinion.

that said about 90% of my fishing is done is salt :o

[Michael]

"That's a difficult one...each person has his own personal likes and dislikes."

I think you got it wrong Mike, I asked which rod YOU would rather choose. Not which one you think I should choose. ...

Well, further down in my post, you'll see I said I cannot answer you as I have ZERO experience with the Winston rod. So I'd have to go cast the Winston and maybe fish it for a day, to see whether I'd prefer the Z-Axis 10wt, or the Winston 10wt.

'Cos in the end, what does it matter what I think anyway...If I say "buy the Z-Axis", will you listen to me? :p

In the end, it DOES boil down to what you like...so everyone you have chatted to is right! :)

The worst thing you can do though, is buy a rod you have never cast or at least felt. So if you have never seen or cast the Winston, do you really want to take the chance of getting it, and you may not like it at all?

What one guy loves, another guy hates. And it has a lot to do with your casting style, rythm, strengths and weaknesses in your casting, etc. Some rods I've thought are pretty crappy in wind, I've seen professional casters put out an entire line with the same rod in worse wind! Hell, I've seen a guy cast a full fly line with just the top two sections of a rod (4.5 feet of rod)...and another guy put a loop on a broomstick (actual broomstick) and cast out a full line! Sometimes, we can blame the rod when the fault could lie with us and our casting style. We tend to buy rods that suit our casting style...when in fact we should be able to adapt our casting style and rythm to the rod.

Of course there are rods out there that just cast better than others (rods with the same actions and stiffness etc), that's no doubt.

[smallstreams.co.za]

Okay, spoke the Stephen at CTS, and here's the outcome...

Thanks Mike, just got an exam quick, will reply in detail later

[Ryan]

Model: FM905-4 DN# 1.2 (4 piece)

Weight (g)---Butt Ø (mm)---Tip Ø (mm)
36.g-----------8.80-----------1.70

Model: FM905-6 DN# 1.2 (6 piece)

Weight (g)---Butt Ø (mm)---Tip Ø (mm)
36.g-----------9.20-----------1.70

As you can see, the weight remains exactly the same.
The tip diameter remains exactly the same.
The Butt diameter however, increased by 0.4mm.
That increased the butt power but is nullified by the increase in swingweight and softening of the rod. Hence, the two rod's actions and feel stay exactly the same. (Also, the mandrels and tapers are designed to get all the variables correct, on each section).



Shot for the explanation... very interesting! What I would like to know, excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject, but if the butt is increased in size on the 6 piece, and there is obviously more ferrules etc..how is it that the weight/mass remains the same?

[Michael]

Shot for the explanation... very interesting! What I would like to know, excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject, but if the butt is increased in size on the 6 piece, and there is obviously more ferrules etc..how is it that the weight/mass remains the same?

Ryan...there are some things they will not tell me, for obvious reasons...I mean eventually he may as well send me the spec sheets on their mandrels... :)
They play around with tapers (mandrels), material construction, etc. But the exact process, they will not divulge obviously.

[Ryan]

Ryan...there are some things they will not tell me, for obvious reasons...I mean eventually he may as well send me the spec sheets on their mandrels... :)
They play around with tapers (mandrels), material construction, etc. But the exact process, they will not divulge obviously.

That's fair comment.. I just thought I was missing something.. shot!

[smallstreams.co.za]

Stephen agrees with this, but says they do compensate for this in the construction and tapers, materials, thickness, etc.

They in fact soften the flex a little to compensate for the stiffening up.

He stressed that they put a large amount of design into their multi piece blanks (mandrels and tapers, materials, processes) to ensure the action remains as true to form, regardless of the amount of sections.

Thanks for this Mike. Makes perfect sense, but I have another question now (sorry bout that). Are the above just done theoretically, or are all the tapers and mandrels in all possible configs already made and have they all been physically tested?

Note: I'm not trying to slag CTS as I have no issue with the brand (or any other for that matter), I'm just trying to get as informed as possible about this - Scientia est potentia!

[Michael]

Thanks for this Mike. Makes perfect sense, but I have another question now (sorry bout that). Are the above just done theoretically, or are all the tapers and mandrels in all possible configs already made and have they all been physically tested?

Note: I'm not trying to slag CTS as I have no issue with the brand (or any other for that matter), I'm just trying to get as informed as possible about this - Scientia est potentia!

Mario...you have Stephen's e-mail addy, I pressume? You've brought in one or two of their blanks. Why not mail him all your questions?
Or give him a call, he's a very pleasant guy and passionate about his blanks...will explain it all.

I've built up many of their blanks, and fish them myself...I'm confident enough in them already.

[smallstreams.co.za]

Mario...you have Stephen's e-mail addy, I pressume? You've brought in one or two of their blanks. Why not mail him all your questions?
Or give him a call, he's a very pleasant guy and passionate about his blanks...will explain it all.

Yes, I know Stephen Pratt, but the topic is on a forum, I thought it would be to the benefit of all to find out and be discussed, that is the only reason. I'll give him a shout though and will hear what he says though.


I've built up many of their blanks, and fish them myself...I'm confident enough in them already.

Myself as well - but nothing on this new system of theirs.

[Michael]

Myself as well - but nothing on this new system of theirs.

Well, it's not really new...it's new that you can choose straight from a sheet, and mix and match and see what you can build up.

But, they have been doing custom sizes, taper, lengths and actions for a very long time. Hell, every time I order from them there are one or two blanks in the order that are non-standard.
I.e. 2wt, 10 footers...2 wt, 6 pieces...0wt, 8 footers, etc etc.

So while the actual process and concept is new to "everyone", to them it's age old. They've just simplified it for the guy buying a blank.